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NightAire
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| Posted: 02 January 2011 at 3:09am | IP Logged
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Just a quick heads-up to those who collect 12" versions of the hits: Virgin in 2008 re-released the EP "Fascination!" by The Human League in digital format to Amazon (320 kbps mp3) & iTunes (256 kbps AAC).
This would perhaps not be news, except for two things, one good & one bad.
First the good: I have this original 12", and the iTunes file matches my vinyl rip (after click & pop removal and noise / rumble removal) curve-for-curve. It appears that they used NO compression or limiting or clipping on this digital file; in fact, Adobe Audition actually says the iTunes file has a slightly BETTER (lower) RMS than my vinyl!
Also, it appears to be a straight rip from the original tapes; I listened very carefully at the beginning and end and find no record noise, no rumble, but no noise reduction, either... the (very mild) tape hiss remains at full throughout the end fade.
Additionally, for those of you who had this 12", you already know "Fascination" ends its fade just as "Mirror Man" kicks in. The individual digital file keeps every bit of the original "Fascination" ("...moving on...") right to the point of the segue on the original record & then drops the volume to nothing before "Mirror Man"s first beat.
Now, the bad: I've found three digital "glitches." They are small pops that don't appear to be record scratches, but some sort of digital "tick" that didn't get removed before creating the files for download. They are at:
0:39 -- This is almost more a "grit" sound, but if you zoom in on the wav at this point, you'll see the problem, right on the trailing edge of a beat. In fact, I found TWO issues right at this point: one with 2 spikes on the left channel & one on the right, then a few milliseconds later another spike in both channels.
0:40 -- Just one second later, a much easier to find and correct "click," very traditional spike down, then up, then back to normal. It's between a couple of beats, so this should be easy to see. It is in the right channel only.
1:22 -- Once again, a fairly easy to find & fix "click" between two beats; this one is identical to the previous problem at :40, & again is between two beats.
There are two other "noises" in the file which I have decided are NOT noise: one is at 2:14, the next at 2:28. In both cases, what could be clicks I believe are actually the lip smacking of the artist preparing to sing! :)
I'll contact iTunes and let them know; I don't know if they'll do anything or if there's anything they CAN do. I also don't know if the same problems exist on the Amazon mp3 file... nor do I know about the other files from this EP.
I hope this is helpful to someone! I still would recommend this purchase... just prepare to do a little "touch-up work."
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NightAire
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| Posted: 02 January 2011 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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Quick update: iTunes responded & sent me a "fresh" copy, but it has the same problems. I have let them know; we'll see if there's anything to be done about it.
My times above were general; here's the exact times on the unedited file:
1) 40.84 seconds in, both channels, more of a gurgle than a click. (Could potentially be part of the song.)
2) 40.93 seconds in, both channels, a light click. (Could also potentially be part of the song.)
3) 41.788 seconds in, right channel only, a click.
4) 1 minute, 22.296 seconds in, right channel only, a click.
Updates as they become available...
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Indy500
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| Posted: 03 January 2011 at 6:33pm | IP Logged
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I've got the 12" version (4:56) on a 3" CD along with
the (6:12) Dub mix and Total Panic. Virgin CDT24 Made in Austria. I don't hear anything that isn't a synth noise.
The Dub mix is also on "Original Remixes & Rarities (2005) Made in England
Edited by Indy500 on 03 January 2011 at 6:35pm
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budaniel
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| Posted: 04 January 2011 at 10:05am | IP Logged
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unfortunately, the dub mix is faded early on that CD instead of running to its full cold end. Can't figure out why they did that unless they mastered it from vinyl and the vinyl they used was too defective at the end to clean up.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 04 January 2011 at 1:35pm | IP Logged
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NightAire wrote:
0:39 -- This is almost more a "grit" sound, but if you zoom in on the wav at this point, you'll see the problem, right on the trailing edge of a beat. In fact, I found TWO issues right at this point: one with 2 spikes on the left channel & one on the right, then a few milliseconds later another spike in both channels.
0:40 -- Just one second later, a much easier to find and correct "click," very traditional spike down, then up, then back to normal. It's between a couple of beats, so this should be easy to see. It is in the right channel only.
1:22 -- Once again, a fairly easy to find & fix "click" between two beats; this one is identical to the previous problem at :40, & again is between two beats.
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These muffled clicks are in my early '90s Austrian 3" CD single (Virgin CDT24). I would never have thought they were something that shouldn't be there if you hadn't pointed them out.
NightAire wrote:
I have this original 12", and the iTunes file matches my vinyl rip (after click & pop removal and noise / rumble removal) curve-for-curve. |
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Okay, but have you compared them BEFORE click and pop and rumble removal? Because if these sounds were on the original vinyl copy, declicking it would remove them whether the source of them is the vinyl itself or the master tape.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 04 January 2011 at 1:36pm | IP Logged
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budaniel wrote:
| unfortunately, the dub mix is faded early on that CD instead of running to its full cold end. Can't figure out why they did that unless they mastered it from vinyl and the vinyl they used was too defective at the end to clean up. |
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It has the full cold ending on the Austrian 3-inch CD single from the early '90s.
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NightAire
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| Posted: 05 January 2011 at 1:14am | IP Logged
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Brian W., you are genius... and I am an idiot!
I am SO EMBARRASSED right now that if I could delete this whole thread, I would! Oh, man...
I read your post and thought, "good idea! Why didn't I think to check that?" So, I pulled out my vinyl copy & lined it up in Adobe Audition...
40.84 - Yup. There on the record. 40.93 - There on the record, too. OK, but I said both of those might be part of the song...
41.788 - %$#@!!! There it is, too!!! 1:22.296 - I already knew what was coming... and there it was...
I NEVER would have looked for these noises on the vinyl because the surface noise wouldn't have allowed it. Even if I heard it, I certainly would have thought it was noise in the groove... NOT clicks in the master tape!
I'm going to have to write iTunes an apology letter... and I apologize for raising the false alarm on this board... *grumble-grumble*
Clearly, I listen to this song WAY too loud. :)
Great catch, Brian... I can't believe I missed this one.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 05 January 2011 at 2:00pm | IP Logged
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LOL! Glad I could help. (And glad they were part of the original record, not a defect in the remastering on my CD!)
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aaronk
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| Posted: 05 January 2011 at 2:18pm | IP Logged
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No need for apologies, Gene. ;) I never analyze those things too deeply. There have been occasional instances where a small tick appeared on a CD copy, and after checking a vinyl copy I discovered it was on there, too. One glaring example is the 45 version of "Sad Songs" by Elton John, where it sounds like a wire shorts out in one of the channels for a second. It's like that on CD and vinyl copies.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 10 July 2013 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
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To date, all database CD appearances of Human League's "(Keep Feeling) Fascination" are listed with a "45 version" comment. Now, my understanding is that the 12" single version appears on the 1983 vinyl EP Fascination! that NightAire referenced earlier. So I have two questions: 1) Is this also considered the LP version? 2) Should a track appearing on an EP and also issued as a 12" single be considered an LP version? I'm not trying to split hairs here, yet I am curious to get other opinions on this.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 10 July 2013 at 9:06pm | IP Logged
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Todd Ireland wrote:
| Now, my understanding is that the 12" single version appears on the 1983 vinyl EP Fascination! |
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Todd, to clarify, I don't think a separate 12" single was released. The Fascination! EP was the one-and-only source of the extended and dub versions when it was originally released. I also have this EP, and I've never come across a separate 12" single. So, to answer your first question, there is a "45 version" and "EP version," but no LP version.
I agree with Pat that all CD entries should contain the notation "45 version," since the song was released on another format at the time, even though it technically wasn't an LP.
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abagon
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| Posted: 11 July 2013 at 9:50am | IP Logged
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My opinion for vinyl EP and mini album.
I'm also hard to say as LP version. Because the total actual running time of the mini album is too short.
But I think their album tracks must be said as "Album Version." Because the mini albums are active as a parent album.
I found 10 mini albums which are including Top 40 single hits in the 80's .
8 albums are described in the Top Pop Album book with the symbol "M" (It means Mini Album)
*Jellybean's album was not in the album chart. Although the total time is about 35 minutes, the catalog number has "MLP" prefix.
*Mike Post album doesn't have "M" symbol, but the total actual run time is less than 20 minutes.
1982 BARRY MANILOW "Oh Julie!" Arista AB 2500
"Oh Julie"
"Some Kind Of Friend" *also on the later release album "Here Comes The Night" Arista AL-9610
1984 DEBORAH ALLEN "Cheat The Night" RCA MHL1-8514
"Baby I Lied"
1985 DAVID LEE ROTH "Crazy From The Heat" Warner 25222-1
"California Girls"
"Just A Gigolo/I Ain't Got Nobody"
1985 HONEYDRIPPERS "Volume One" es Paranza 90220-1-B
"Sea Of Love"
"Rockin' At Midnight"
1983 HUMAN LEAGUE "Fascination!" A&M SP-12501
"(Keep Feeling) Fascination"
"Mirror Man"
1986 JELLYBEAN "Wotupski!?!" EMI America MLP-19011
"Sidewalk Talk"
1982 MIKE POST "Television Theme Song" Elektra E1-60028
"The Theme From Hill Street Blues" by MIKE POST feat. LARRY CARLTON
"Theme From Magnum Pt.1" by MIKE POST
"The Greatest American Hero (Believe Or Not)" by JOEY SCARBURY
"Rockford Files" by MIKE POST
*This album is actually Greatest Hits.
1983 ROBERT ELLIS ORRALL "Special Pain" RCA MFL1-8502
"I Couldn't Say No" by ROBERT ELLIS ORRALL with CARLENE CARTER
1983 THOMAS DOLBY "Blinded By Science" Harvest MLP-15007
"She Blinded Me With Science"
*Also on the later release full album "The Golden Age Of Wireless" Capitol ST-12271
1985 UB 40 "Little Baggariddim" A&M SP-6-5090
"I Got You Babe" by UB 40 with CHRISSIE HYNDE
--abagon
Edited by abagon on 11 July 2013 at 10:57am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 11 July 2013 at 10:34am | IP Logged
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Great info, abagon! Thank you for posting this!
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abagon
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| Posted: 11 July 2013 at 11:14am | IP Logged
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You're welcome, Aaron!
To chat board members.
Have mini albums been released in the 70's decade?
--abagon
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 11 July 2013 at 2:15pm | IP Logged
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In the early '80s, record companies were experimenting
with new sizes and formats in the US. Both were attempts
to introduce artists at lower price points than the
typical LPs and 45s. Neither really caught on.
One size/format was the mini-LP. In 1982, Harvest
released Duran Duran's Carnival and Thomas Dolby's
Blinded By Science. Both spawned huge hits in
1983 ("Hungry Like The Wolf" and "She Blinded Me With
Science"), which were later included on full-length LPs
by the artists. On CBS, the mini-LP Scandal,
which included "Goodbye To You" and "Love's Got A Line On
You", was reported to have been the biggest-selling EP on
the label (and possibly even to date - not sure about
that, though.)
Another size/format was the one-sided 7" single on the
CBS labels. They were sold in generic sleeves (no
picture sleeves), and had a little LP-sized hole in the
center. One side had the hit, the other side had no
grooves. There was a small flood of these in 1982-83
("Goody Two Shoes", "On The Loose", "Billie Jean",
"Sexual Healing", etc.) I don't think any of these had
special versions or particularly good or bad masterings.
(Initially, I thought that maybe the mini-LP grew out of
the 1970s 12" singles, but I decided that was incorrect.
Different price point, different audience. The 12"
singles were aimed at a club audience that wanted it for
one song. There was really no use for other LP-oriented
tracks on the 12" singles.)
I don't remember the '70s as having many significant EPs
or mini-LPs. Anyone else with a better memory?
Edited by crapfromthepast on 11 July 2013 at 2:16pm
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musicmanatl
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I wonder if the 4-song EP migrated from the UK to the US in the early 1980s. As I'm sure many of you know, the UK charted EPs as singles during that time (but I think that has changed). Demis Roussos hit #1 in the UK in 1976 with his EP, "The Roussos Phenomenon", and the Specials hit #1 in early 1980 with "The Special AKA Live!". Rockpile recorded a 4-song EP of Everly Brothers covers that was included as a bonus disc in their one LP, and that EP was included in the US issue of that LP too.
One interesting aspect of these EPs was the size of them. Some of them were the same size as a regular LP (such as the great Scandal EP) but the Rickie Lee Jones EP "Girl at Her Volcano" was about 3/4 of the size of a regular LP.
Thanks for this trip down memory lane!
Edited by musicmanatl on 11 July 2013 at 5:53pm
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abagon
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| Posted: 12 July 2013 at 8:00am | IP Logged
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Thanks for the info.
I've never seen 12 inch size EP in the 70's releases.
Many 7 inch EP records were released in Japan in the 70's. But tone quality was too bad.
Additional mini album in the 80's.
I found one more mini album. But the below MECO's album is 10 inch size. It has "M" symbol mark in the Top Pop Albums book.
1980 MECO "Meco Plays Music From The Empire Strikes Back" RSO RO-1-3086
"The Empire Strikes Back (Medley)"
--abagon
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 17 July 2013 at 10:06pm | IP Logged
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Thank you so much for compiling your terrific list of EP releases, Abagon. This is very helpful!
I suppose I should step back here and try to determine what exactly defines an official EP (Extended Play) release. I'm not sure if a universally agreed upon criteria exists, though it's often described as something like a "mini-LP". According to Wikipedia, the U.K. considers an EP to be up to 25 minutes in length or four tracks. I'm not aware if there is an official U.S. standard, though I've seen instances where U.S. album releases containing four to six distinctly different tracks with a combined total run time of up to 30 minutes are classified as EPs. The Human League's Fascination! EP, for example, consists of two versions of "(Keep Feeling) Fascination" and four other distinct tracks for a reported total run time of approximately 27 minutes.
Now when taking all of this into account, I'm thinking it probably isn't necessary for songs appearing on an EP release to be classified with an "EP version" comment in the database because this may only create confusion for database subscribers, not to mention become a headache for Pat to have to sort out when to classify songs as "EP version" vs. "LP version". Besides, the database continues to use "45 version" and "LP version" terminology to describe differing versions for Top 40 songs even though in the literal sense actual vinyl 45s and vinyl Long Plays (LPs) haven't been consumed by the music buying public on a widespread basis for at least the past 25 years. So with that said, I guess it makes sense to just keep things simple and continue using "LP version" as a general "catch-all" term.
I should note the reason I brought this topic up in the first place is because I was on the All Music Guide website searching for "(Keep Feeling) Fascination" on a parent vinyl LP. Initially, I couldn't find one and so I questioned why a "45 version" comment would apply here. However, it wasn't until I visited this thread that I learned about the Fascination! EP. This prompted me to go back and visit the EP section on the All Music Guide site and, lo and behold, there it was.
With that said, I'm wondering if the database should make a notation for the handful of instances where a Top 40 single appears in a different version on an EP than on the 45. For example, if the EP/LP version of "(Keep Feeling) Fascination" should ever surface on a domestic CD release, the associated comment could maybe be stated as something like: "LP version, which first appeared on the Fascination! vinyl EP".
aaronk wrote:
| Todd, to clarify, I don't think a separate 12" single was released. The Fascination! EP was the one-and-only source of the extended and dub versions when it was originally released. I also have this EP, and I've never come across a separate 12" single. |
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Upon further research, there was a promo 12" vinyl single for "(Keep Feeling) Fascination" but it doesn't appear a 12" commercial single was ever released in the U.S.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 17 July 2013 at 10:11pm
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Brian W.
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Todd Ireland wrote:
I'm not aware if there is an official U.S. standard. |
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The RIAA on its website defines an EP as: "Must include at least three but no more than five different songs."
Which somewhat overlaps their definition of a single: "Must contain no more than four different songs. Only one song is eligible [for certification]."
Now, it does say "songs," not tracks, so a remix single with ten different versions of a song might be considered a single. Not sure how that works.
Edited by Brian W. on 18 July 2013 at 8:57am
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abagon
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| Posted: 18 July 2013 at 9:50am | IP Logged
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You're welcome, Todd!
The LP catalog numbers of "A&M records" has SP plus 4 digits (for example, POLICE's "Synchronicity" vinyl LP number is SP-3735).
Also has SP plus 6 plus four digits (for example, TA MARA & THE SEEN's self-titled vinyl LP number is SP-6-5078).
And 12 inch vinyl's catalog number of "A&M records" has SP plus 5 digits (for example, HERB ALPERT's "Diamonds" 12 inch vinyl number is SP-12231)
Strangely, HUMAN LEAGUE's "The Fascination!" (6 tracks - Total run time 26:46) has the same standard as the A&M's 12 inch number (SP-12501).
UB 40's "Little Baggariddim" (6 tracks - Total run time 23:19) has the A&M's LP number (SP-6-5090).
HUMAN LEAGUE's "The Fascination!" contains two versions of "(Keep Feeling) Fascination.
Also "UB 40's "Little Baggariddim" contains two versions of "I Got You Babe" (Another is instrumental version)
By the way, some full length LPs contain two versions of a song.
For example.
SHANNON's "Let the Music Play" vinyl LP contains two versions of the title song. (LP version & Remix version) (Mirage 90134-1)
GODLEY & CRÈME's "The History Mix Volume 1" vinyl LP contains two versions of "Cry". (LP version & Single Version) (Polydor 825 981-1 Y-1)
MILLI VANILLI's "Girl You Know It's True" vinyl LP contains two versions of "Girl You Know It's True". (LP version & N.Y Subway Extended Mix) (Arista AL-8592)
I'm confused. But I hope that the above info is helpful. I will update the mini-LP's info about the numbers of track with the actual full running time in the 80's. Thank you for the beneficial info, Brian W!
--abagon
Edited by abagon on 18 July 2013 at 9:59am
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Human League - (Keep Feeling) Fascination
