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NightAire
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| Posted: 21 September 2013 at 11:19pm | IP Logged
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Another "bubbling under the top 40" hit from the 80s, Talking Heads' "And She Was" had an album and commercial single length of 3:38 (approximately).
...Of course if it was that cut and dry, I wouldn't be posting this...
Discogs lists this U.S. promo single which claims to be a "new mix" and runs only 3:26 instead of 3:36.
Question #1: was this REALLY a new mix / shorter length, or was this just a new label in an attempt to get radio to pick it up?
Question #2: when radio DID play this single (as I assume they must have), was it the 3:38 commercial single version, or was it this "new mix?"
Thanks for your help in figuring this one out! I find no trace of this "new mix" in my collection of Talking Heads tracks, so I'm suspecting this was a "typo." I'd just like to be 100% sure of that.
Edited by NightAire on 22 September 2013 at 1:13am
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Underground Dub
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| Posted: 22 September 2013 at 12:03am | IP Logged
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The "New Mix" is an alternate mix and was used in the the music video.
This version was also featured on the promotional Canadian release, a needledrop of which can be downloaded here. Enjoy!
Hopefully someone can shed light onto whether this was the dominant airplay mix.
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NightAire
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| Posted: 22 September 2013 at 1:10am | IP Logged
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I stand corrected; you are right that the video mix and the album mix are NOT the same. Thanks for this info, and the link to the download! I'm grabbing it now to add into rotation (since it is listed as the U.S. promo).
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Fetta
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| Posted: 22 September 2013 at 1:55am | IP Logged
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Gene... Ping me if you want a dub of the 12" for Blacklight Friday and
Sat nights.
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NightAire
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| Posted: 22 September 2013 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the offer, Fetta. I'll let you know if it turns out I need it. I think I've got a good copy here. Nevertheless, I appreciate you thinking about our weekend programming!
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Hykker
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| Posted: 23 September 2013 at 5:15am | IP Logged
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I compared my "new mix" promo with my promo for the 3:38
version, and it is indeed a different mix. The remix has
listed time of 3:26, actual 3:31. I'd say 75% of the
circumference of the deadwax has info in it...SLM ∆ 10430
1-1 7-28917-DNY-3672-RE1-S SH1 OR-14757-Re1-SH1
Whew! Someone must have had writers' cramp by the time
they finished that one!
As far as which version got the most radio play...can't
say...I'd never really listened that closely to the remix
before.
Edited by Hykker on 23 September 2013 at 5:17am
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 23 September 2013 at 7:24am | IP Logged
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This is interesting. I joined my college station in
1986, after "And She Was" had run its course at pop radio
in 1985. I remember the chart run for "And She Was" as
lurking forever in the bottom half of the Hot 100.
Despite the lackluster chart performance, the song and
the video were very widely known at the time, even
to mainstream audiences. I'd lump "And She Was" into the
same category as "Tempted" and "What I Like About You",
where it got recurrent airplay later on without actually
getting current airplay at the time.
I think we played the LP versions of "And She Was", "Stay
Up Late", and "Road To Nowhere", as best as I can
remember 28 years after the fact. At the college
station, we worked off 12" vinyl - initially with the 12"
single (until someone walked off with it), then the LP.
That was a typical pattern all throughout the late '80s -
Ooh! the 12" single for Duran Duran's "Notorious" is
completely clear! then it was gone...
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 23 September 2013 at 9:30am | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
I compared my "new mix" promo with my promo for the 3:38 version, and it is indeed a different mix. The remix has a listed time of 3:26, actual 3:31. I'd say 75% of the circumference of the deadwax has info in it...SLM ∆ 10430 1-1 7-28917-DNY-3672-RE1-S SH1 OR-14757-Re1-SH1
Whew! Someone must have had writers' cramp by the time they finished that one! |
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Steve, are you sure the "O" in the "OR-14757" isn't actually a malformed Allied Records stylized "A" logo? The B-side deadwax of my styrene stock copy of "Road To Nowhere" ("Give Me Back My Name") has a similar spread-out numbering pattern and layout, and what looks more like an "O" (or a "Q", actually) is a partially-formed Allied logo. Allied was the United Artists-owned L.A. plant which was inherited by Capitol and subsequently sold to WEA. During the early '80s, I received duplicate Warner promo 45s from both Allied (styrene) and Specialty (vinyl.)
My "And She Was" new mix RE-1 DJ 45 is a Specialty vinyl pressing, with a shorter deadwax ID: (SRC Specialty Records logo) "7-28917-DNY-3672-RE1-S- SR21-2". It's the file copy from the KDWB library, but as I wasn't working there at the time, I can't presume that it actually ended up on cart.
My copy states "Mixed by Malcolm Pollack", as does the Discogs scan Gene linked to upthread. The Canadian promo Underground Dub linked to states "Mixed by Eric E.T. Thorngren" on both the A and "Dub" B-sides. Was that simply a case of the Canadian label copy not having been updated for the new mix?
crapfromthepast wrote:
| until someone walked off with it |
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I thought that only happened at my college station, Ron! ;) Our setup minimized pilfering, as one could only access the on-air studio/record library by walking through the newsroom/studio. When it did occur, it was the catalog LPs that vanished: most of the Beatles' titles on one occasion, and a swath of Motown gold on another, with the latter being traced to a custodian at the student union (an art deco building located next to the art museum that looks like an exploded furnace on the east bank of a certain river on a certain planet.) The union was locked after 11PM, and the thefts always occurred during the 3-7AM hours when we weren't originating our own programming.
Wow... I'd forgotten about having to put on a long enough record to dash down three floors and to the opposite wing of the building to admit the midnight-to-3 jock and run back upstairs again... it was faster than waiting for the elevators.
Edited by Yah Shure on 23 September 2013 at 9:32am
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 23 September 2013 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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Yah Shure wrote:
I thought that only happened at my
college station, Ron! |
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I think we've touched on a universal theme from college
radio back then...
It even extended to equipment, to the point where the
vocal mikes in the on-air studio were routinely stolen.
People kept walking away with the Shure SM58s.
Eventually, the engineers put a deliberately awful-
sounding on-air mike in the studio, just so no one would
walk off with it. Very much a case of cutting off your
nose to spite your face - the on-air vocals from our
station sounded abysmal.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 23 September 2013 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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Yah Shure wrote:
Steve, are you sure the "O" in the "OR-14757" isn't
actually a malformed Allied Records stylized "A" logo?
The B-side deadwax of my styrene stock copy of "Road To
Nowhere" ("Give Me Back My Name") has a similar spread-
out numbering pattern and layout, and what looks more
like an "O" (or a "Q", actually) is a partially-formed
Allied logo. |
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It could conceivably be a Q...there does seem to be a
little speck at about 5 o'clock on it. Would never in a
million years suspect it of being an A though.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 23 September 2013 at 5:29pm | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
...there does seem to be a
little speck at about 5 o'clock on it. Would never in a
million years suspect it of being an A though.
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The logo is slightly offset (which doesn't help to clarify matters) and it's even harder to decipher when it isn't fully formed, when the inner circle is often missing. When it is stamped correctly, the "A" resembles one of those long, thin balloons wrapped into a circle, with the knots tying it all together forming that sort of a flat spot on the bottom right corner around 5-6 o'clock. Allied didn't begin using the balloon deadwax logo until after WEA had bought the plant.
You'll also see it utilized on the styrene Capitol promo and stock 45s from roughly 1986-88, which was after Capitol ditched its own vinyl pressing facilities and before WEA consigned all of its vinyl 45 production to the Specialty plant.
Interestingly enough, the Allied logo is present on both my styrene promo and vinyl stock copies of Capitol B-5624 (the 1986 reissue of "Twist And Shout") and although the vinyl stock is an Allied mastering job - with the added delta number - it happens to be a Specialty pressing, even though it lacks the familiar Specialty deadwax logo. "There's A Place" on the B-side is notable inasmuch as the deadwax area takes up more room than the modulated playing area, leaving enough room for the spaced-out matrix numbers, logos, delta numbers and the first two chapters of the Beatles' Anthology coffee table book. ;)
Edited by Yah Shure on 23 September 2013 at 5:31pm
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 24 September 2013 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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At some point 2 1/2 years ago, I downloaded the 'Digital
45' for "And She Was." The run time is 3:31. I don't have
the LP version to compare, so would the Digital 45 be the
New Mix?
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 24 September 2013 at 1:31pm | IP Logged
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John was kind enough to send me a dub of his digital 45, and I can confirm that it is the "New Mix" 45 version. The vinyl 45 only runs about one-tenth of a second faster than the digital file, so there's no significant speed difference.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 24 September 2013 at 6:34pm | IP Logged
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The only time I've seen a new mix listed among the 45 scans
I've seen online is with the "Back To Back Hits" series.
And She Was was backed by Wild Wild Life. The listed time
on those scans is 3:26. The promo 45 scans I've seen are a
listed 3:36, and must have been the original mix/LP version
of the song.
At some point, the decision must have been made to promote
the "New Mix" instead. Would everyone agree?
Edited by eriejwg on 24 September 2013 at 6:35pm
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80smusicfreak
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| Posted: 25 September 2013 at 3:27am | IP Logged
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eriejwg wrote:
| At some point, the decision must have been made to promote the "New Mix" instead. Would everyone agree? |
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Yes, that's exactly what happened. In fact, it's all well documented on Discogs' "And She Was" singles page (complete w/ pics), which it seems everyone here has overlooked. And between that info, the popularity of the video on MTV at the time, and the song's history on the pop charts, I feel it's pretty easy to piece together exactly what happened here (even though I admit I've never owned either version of the 45 myself)...
"And She Was" was first released as a commercial 45 here in the U.S. in late August of 1985, on Sire 28917. Those first pressings featured the LP version of the song (listed 3:36; recorded & mixed by Eric "E.T." Thorngren), w/ a "Dub" version on the B-side (listed 3:38); it came in a picture sleeve. It quickly debuted on Billboard's "Hot 100" chart at #94 in the September 7 issue; three weeks later, on September 28, it followed suit on the "Top 100" in Cash Box, at #87. Photo page for it on Discogs (15th entry on the singles page linked above): First commercial U.S. pressing (Aug. 1985)
crapfromthepast wrote:
| Despite the lackluster chart performance, the song and the video were very widely known at the time, even to mainstream audiences. |
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Ah yes, the classic music video the band made for this song, and the by-then-powerful influence of MTV (we're the same age, cftp). I agree w/ you 100% on this; no question that the video was popular, and getting HEAVY rotation on MTV at the time, and for several months. Unfortunately for the band, though, that obviously wasn't translating into a high ranking on the trade papers' singles charts, since MTV airplay couldn't be measured, and thus factored into any song's chart position. So by October, w/ the song stalling on the pop charts despite the video's huge popularity, and the buying public not being able to obtain that version of the song that they'd grown attached to on either the 45 or LP, it's obvious that Sire realized they needed to release the video version commercially, if they wanted to jump-start the song. So about that time, they released a second commercial version of the 45 here in the U.S., which retained the same "28917" catalog no. and picture sleeve. But this time, the A-side featured the video version of the song (listed 3:26, but this time w/ the mix credited to Malcolm Pollack), and a longer original "E.T. Version" on the B-side (listed 4:30). In addition to the different A- and B-sides, those second pressings can also be identified by a notation of "RE-1" on both labels. Photo page for it on Discogs (18th entry on the singles page): Second commercial U.S. pressing (Nov. 1985)
crapfromthepast wrote:
| I remember the chart run for "And She Was" as lurking forever in the bottom half of the Hot 100. |
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Indeed. But alas, the single failed to turn around on the pop charts. In fact, here's the song's complete chart run in both Billboard and Cash Box, side-by-side:
09/07/85: #94 BB/-- CB
09/14/85: #89 BB/-- CB
09/21/85: #86 BB/-- CB
09/28/85: #80 BB/#87 CB
10/05/85: #79 BB/#79 CB
10/12/85: #69 BB/#71 CB
10/19/85: #64 BB/#64 CB
10/26/85: #61 BB/#57 CB
11/02/85: #54 BB (peak)/#52 CB
11/09/85: #60 BB/#51 CB
11/16/85: #60 BB/#50 CB
11/23/85: #63 BB/#48 CB (peak)
11/30/85: #65 BB/#61 CB
12/07/85: #87 BB/#74 CB
12/14/85: #88 BB/#79 CB
12/21/85: #92 BB/#87 CB
12/28/85: #94 BB/#97 CB
01/04/86: #94 BB (frozen)/#97 CB (frozen)
01/11/86: #95 BB/#97 CB (frozen again)
01/18/86: #100 BB/-- CB
NightAire wrote:
| Question #2: when radio DID play this single (as I assume they must have), was it the 3:38 commercial single version, or was it this "new mix?" |
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Note that in both magazines, the song moved both straight up (peaking at #54 in Billboard in the November 2 issue, and at #48 in Cash Box in the November 23 issue), as well as straight down, making it a little tougher to pinpoint just exactly when the second pressing of the 45 w/ the video version (a.k.a. "new mix") hit radio stations & store shelves; if I had to guess, I'd say it was probably around early November. Clearly radio play for the original LP version had been only lukewarm, and by the time Sire released the "new mix", radio had become disinterested, because if the "new mix" had gotten even SOME airplay, it would've resulted in at least a slight turnaround on the pop chart, w/ the song heading back into the 60s or 50s, if not higher - but as the numbers show above, that didn't happen. Instead, the song continued to drop, albeit very slowly, so the switch to the "new mix" merely led to an extended run in the bottom half of each magazine's chart (20 weeks in Billboard; 16 in Cash Box) - very unusual for a song that failed to crack the top 40 in those days. I strongly suspect that its chart longevity was due strictly to sales, thanks to Sire making the video mix available on the 45 (which was of course spurred by continued saturation of MTV play). So to answer your question, based on chart analysis, it appears the LP version got some radio airplay, and the "new mix" almost none (at least at pop radio - remember, college/alternative radio was definitely on the rise then, so I'm sure it got a bit more there)...
crapfromthepast wrote:
| I'd lump "And She Was" into the same category as "Tempted" and "What I Like About You", where it got recurrent airplay later on without actually getting current airplay at the time. |
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Sorry, but this is where I'm going to have to disagree w/ you. Yes, "Tempted" and "What I Like About You" are both great examples of songs that more or less stiffed on the charts (and radio) upon initial release, but have since gone on to become classics, w/ heaps of radio and video play even today (and as a result, inclusion on dozens of V/A compilations, which it just so happens we both love to collect), as if they were top 10 hits back in the day. Different scenario for "And She Was", though. While it had a popular (and classic) video - as you noted - and it didn't chart that high per se, its chart life was still significant, which was reflected more in its longevity vs. peak. However, despite the video and that chart longevity, unlike "Tempted" and "What I Like About You", the song has since been largely forgotten. Once in a blue moon VH-1 Classic (which I watch regularly) will play the video, but that's practically the only time & place I've ever heard it for the last 25 years (never on the radio!). And can you name more than even THREE U.S. V/A compilation CDs (inc. soundtracks) that the song has ever appeared on in the 28 years since it was first released??? I certainly can't - the soundtrack to the 2005 film Bewitched is all I can come up with (and no, I have no idea which version is on it)! And perhaps that's largely the band's own fault, since it seems they RARELY allow any of their songs to be licensed for inclusion on such comps...
That being said, there actually IS one Talking Heads song that I'd group in that category of now-classics along w/ "Tempted" and "What I Like About You", and that's gotta be "Once in a Lifetime" (only "Bubbled Under" for one week at #103 on 02/07/81 in Billboard, and also failed to crack the "Top 100" in Cash Box). In fact, even by 1986 it was considered a classic, as reflected in that year's chart entry of a live version at #91 in Billboard and #82 in Cash Box. Of course, the original studio version of that song also had a classic video, but because the single pre-dated the debut of MTV by some six months, it had no influence on its chart performance. (And even if it had come out 6-12 months later, MTV obviously wouldn't have yet been in enough homes to make a dent then, either.) THAT song of theirs definitely still gets both radio & video play today - and while definitely not widely available on V/A comps or soundtracks, either, it's certainly appeared on more than just one over the years...
Sorry for the long post!
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crapfromthepast
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Great post! I do hear "And She Was" on recurrent-based
radio, like Jack FM, so it hasn't completely vanished.
Excellent documentation of the original release (LP
version) and the later attempt to spur some interest (RE-
1). I didn't know there were two releases of the
commercial 45.
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jimct
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| Posted: 25 September 2013 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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On the Discogs site, the "And She Was" U.S. promo 7" information that
80smusicfreak had cited earlier, happens to be incomplete. (Helpful as
that site is, this is frequently the case, as it is both member-collection and
member-input dependent. Much like we are here, until a thread is
started. This is why some of us here consider it to be a nice, but far
from a definitive, source.)
Both 1985 U.S. commercial 45s were also issued as promo 45s (Discogs
only notes the remix as appearing on a U.S. promo 45.) In fact, Steve
(Hykker) had already specifically noted this missing Discogs info
upthread. FYI, the deadwax info for the first promo 45 we got into the
station is also painfully long: "SLM (delta) 10430", then it has that
"symbol" that looks like either an "O" or "Q", then "R-14759-SH1 7-28917
- DNY - 3672 - S SH1".
Edited by jimct on 25 September 2013 at 9:08am
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Hykker
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80smusicfreak wrote:
Unfortunately for the band,
though, that obviously wasn't translating into a high
ranking on the trade papers' singles charts, since MTV
airplay couldn't be measured, and thus factored into any
song's chart position. |
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Was it that MTV's airplay couldn't be measured, or that
the trades chose not to include it? Most radio stations
manually reported spins thru at least the mid-90s when
BDS/Mediabase came to being in the larger markets. I
don't see any reason that MTVs spins couldn't have been
tabulated as well...not sure exactly when they started,
but Billboard at least did have music video charts.
Quote:
Different scenario for "And She Was", though.
While it had a popular (and classic) video - as you noted
- and it didn't chart that high per se, its chart life
was still significant, which was reflected more in its
longevity vs. peak. However, despite the video and that
chart longevity, unlike "Tempted" and "What I Like About
You", the song has since been largely forgotten. Once in
a blue moon VH-1 Classic (which I watch regularly) will
play the video, but that's practically the only time &
place I've ever heard it for the last 25 years (never on
the radio!). |
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I have worked at 2 classic rock stations, both of which
played ASW, albeit in a medium-to-light rotation. A bit
surprising since the Talking Heads were a bit of a fringe
act at AOR...I'm sure the song was much bigger on the
alt-rock charts.
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 25 September 2013 at 1:31pm | IP Logged
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"And She Was" did hit #11 on Billboard's Mainstream Rock Tracks chart (their Modern Rock chart wasn't around yet in 1985).
My college radio station played it a lot at the time, but I don't remember ever hearing it on Top 40 radio. I do hear it
once in awhile on the classic rock stations, so it hasn't totally disappeared.
MTV play was never factored into the Hot 100. If it was, then "Home Sweet Home" by Motley Crue would've peaked much
higher than #89 in 1985!
Edited by Paul Haney on 21 November 2020 at 5:57am
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musicmanatl
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| Posted: 26 September 2013 at 8:40pm | IP Logged
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Underground Dub, thanks for the link to the Fun with Vinyl page for this song! That site is a motherlode of single versions. It was like Christmas came early!
Frank
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Talking Heads - And She Was
