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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:55pm | IP Logged
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The David Bowie catalog really doesn't sound so good on CD. In general, the RCA CDs (if you can find them) tended to use higher-generation source tapes, but didn't use any additional noise reduction. I don't care for the RCAs myself. The Rykos tended to use better source tapes, but used a little noise reduction to suck the life out of them. Not great, but a little better to my ears than the RCAs. I've only heard the EMI Best Of Bowie collection, but I wasn't impressed - I heard noise reduction and a smiley-face EQ on some tracks. I haven't heard any of the Virgin discs.
For "Fame", the choices are comparable to my generalizations.
It sounds thin and distant on the RCA collections ChangesOneBowie (copyright 1976) and Fame And Fashion (copyright 1984). There's a multi-disc collection from Holland called The Singles Collection (1993), which is digitally exactly 3.244 dB louder than RCA's ChangesOneBowie.
It sounds a little clearer on Ryko's 2-CD The Singles 1969-1993 (1993). There are digital clones on Time-Life's Guitar Rock Vol. 10 Classics (1994; digitally exactly 0.9 dB quieter) and Time-Life's Gold And Platinum Vol. 3 (1997; digitally exactly 2 dB quieter). Unfortunately, the common Ryko collection Changesbowie uses the 1990 remix of "Fame".
It sounds boomy and a little compressed on EMI's Best Of Bowie (2002).
If I had to pick, I'd go with Ryko's The Singles 1969-1993 (1993) for the LP version.
The 45 edit is easy. Here are editing instructions using The Singles 1969-1993 as the source:
Segment 1
Extends from 0:00.0 to 2:09.8 of the LP version and the 45 edit
Ends on a downbeat, in the middle of a high-pitched guitar note
Remove the 70 beats from 2:09.8 to 2:54.2 of the LP version
Segment 2
Begins on a downbeat with a crash cymbal (at what would be the end of a snare drum fill)
Extends from 2:54.2 to 4:18.3 (end) of the LP version
Extends from 2:09.8 to 3:33.9 (end) of the 45 edit
Your mixdown will run 3:31 (3:33.9 with outro silence), with an edit at 2:09.8.
Fortunately, Rhino has already done this edit for you on Millennium Classic Rock Party (1999), which is inexpensive, and doesn't seem to have the noise reduction that's on the Ryko discs. The song retains the high end on the fade, which is pleasantly hissy. Based on my experience with the Millennium discs, I'd bet that it does its own edit from one of the earlier RCA, Ryko, EMI, or Virgin masterings, but I don't know which one.
The only other choice for the 45 edit is Rhino's pricey Have A Nice Decade The '70s Pop Culture Box, which sounds very close to Millennium.
My choice for the 45 edit: Rhino's Millennium Classic Rock Party (1999).
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David Pro
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| Posted: 12 August 2020 at 5:28pm | IP Logged
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There is a 1996 re-release of
Changesbowie which replaces
the 1990 remix of "Fame" with the
original version.
sbowie/release/2713732">https://www.discogs.com/change
sbowie/release/2713732
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LunarLaugh
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 4:48pm | IP Logged
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It sounds great on my US 2-disc Sony/Legacy release of
"Nothing Has Changed" (different than the Parlophone
European releases).
https://www.discogs.com/David-Bowie-Nothing-Has-
Changed/release/6316570
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garye
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
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The single version of "Fame"I have and a few other
single releases from that period is from a CD titled
"Recall-2" from 2006. The sound is clean and punchy in a
good way. No NR or hiss.
Not sure where the version came from.
But "Heroes", Golden Years" and even the single edit of
"TVC 15" all sound very nice.
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David Pro
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| Posted: 22 September 2020 at 6:46am | IP Logged
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The 45 version of "Fame" running
3:31 has never appeared on any
Bowie compilations released on CD.
It was, though, included in a
European compilation by K-Tel
titled The Best of Bowie
(not to be confused with the 2002
compilation Best of Bowie)
which was released in 1980.
https://www.discogs.com/David-
Bowie-The-Best-Of-
Bowie/master/49791
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garye
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| Posted: 23 September 2020 at 1:34pm | IP Logged
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[QUOTE=David Pro] The 45 version of "Fame" running
3:31 has never appeared on any
Bowie compilations released on CD.
It was, though, included in a
European compilation by K-Tel
titled The Best of Bowie
(not to be confused with the 2002
compilation Best of Bowie)
which was released in 1980.
https://www.discogs.com/David-
Bowie-The-Best-Of-
David, my copy of "Fame" from the Recall 2 CD times at
3:34. First thought might have been pitched down, but
compared it to a 45 scratchy dub so pitch is the same.
The 45 times at 3:30 on fade out.
Not sure where the CD version I have comes from.
Edited by garye on 23 September 2020 at 1:34pm
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RamapoGrad
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| Posted: 24 September 2020 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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Nothing on CD sounds like the original RCA 45, which to
my ears has more impact and extra reverb on the vocals
compared to the LP mix.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 25 September 2020 at 9:46am | IP Logged
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Is there a mix difference?
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garye
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| Posted: 27 September 2020 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
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Ok. I compared a RCA 45 dub, up against the version of
Fame from the Re:Call 2 CD version I have.
Couldn't tell much of difference.
Both have some reverb in the beginning, but sound the
same all the way through, even repeated listenings.
The only difference is the 45 dub timed out at 3:27
and the other version at 3:34.
The 45 rip fades out about 3 seconds earlier that the
CD rip.
The fade out times are about the same, just quicker
once it starts on the 45.
Hope this helps.
BTW both mixes are indentical to my ears.
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mjb50
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| Posted: 02 March 2022 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
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garye wrote:
| The single version of "Fame" I have and a few other single releases from that period is from a CD titled "Recall-2" from 2006. The sound is clean and punchy in a good way. No NR or hiss. Not sure where the version came from. |
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Re:Call 2 is not from 2006; it is disc 12 of the 2016 box set Who Can I Be Now? [1974-1976]. I agree that it has no noise reduction to speak of. This means that it does have hiss. That's a good thing, because the reverb tails are in there too.
garye wrote:
| I compared a RCA 45 dub, up against the version of Fame from the Re:Call 2 CD version I have. Couldn't tell much of difference. |
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Unfortunately, you overlooked that the "Original Single Edit" they put on the Re:Call 2 disc is not the 45 version! It was first released in 2015 on a vinyl picture disc, and it's quite close, but the edit point they used at 2:09 involved cutting about one beat later on each end (slightly before the two beat, rather than the one), thereby eliminating the cymbal crash and guitar chord which is in the true 45 version at 2:09. It's a cleaner edit and really should've been the original single version, but oh well.
The beginning and ending of this "Original Single Edit" matches the original Young Americans LP (I checked) in that its fade-in begins early and loud at the very beginning, such that you can fully hear two studio noises which on other releases were barely audible or not included at all. The first noise is a man's voice saying something like "thurry" (sorry? thirty? alright?). Then you hear some kind of click or drop or tap; I'm not sure what it is. Based on scratchy 45 rips on YouTube, it seems the 45 begins its fade-in right before this second sound, but the fade is such that the click or whatever is obscured by vinyl surface noise.
Likewise, the fade-out at the end of the "Original Single Edit" is quite gentle and matches the original LP, so you can pretty plainly hear the cold ending of the final guitar riff and bass note. However, on CD they quickly fade it out in the last fraction of a second, so you don't hear the half-second of hum and hiss after the bass is done; I personally think it's too sudden.
Anyway, I agree with Ron that the album version on Rykodisc's 1993 Bowie compilation The Singles 1969-1993 has very little noise reduction and sounds great; it's a good source for recreating the 45 version. However, I disagree that the 45 version Rhino put on the 1999 Millennium Classic Rock Party compilation doesn't have noise reduction. The noise reduction on it is quite strong, to my ears, and it's the exactly the same as what's on my copy of EMI's The Singles Collection.
The type of noise reduction seems to be bandlimited dynamic range expansion, as one might get via a dbx 3bx unit. It's an effective technique for reducing tape hiss, but when over-applied, as it was here, it also has a muting effect (sudden fade-down) on some reverb tails, which imparts a sort of "halting" effect in the music. I think I mentioned this in a previous post about the Taco "Puttin' on the Ritz" transfers. A treble boost can help somewhat—EMI tried it on The Singles Collection—but it doesn't really fix the problem.
A slightly better option for making your own edit is to start with the mastering found on the 1996 reissue of ChangesBowie. This reissue has the album version instead of the 1990 remix. It's almost identical to what's on The Singles 1969 to 1993, but EQ'd just a hair brighter, and the ends aren't faded so much, which makes it a better match for both the album and the 45. In fact, the fadeout is perfect as-is.
Regardless of which album you start with, to match the single, you'll have to trim a little from the beginning and apply an extra fade-in. The song should start at 0.09 sec. before the click. Apply a 0.70 sec. linear fade-in from there. After this, the click will not really be audible, but should be visible on a spectrogram.
In my opinion, the database should be changed as follows:
• Have A Nice Decade - The ‘70s Pop Culture Box (45 version, but with strong noise reduction, and followed by a news report from the oil crisis era)
• Millennium Classic Rock Party (45 version, but with strong noise reduction)
• Who Can I Be Now? (Box Set) (failed attempt at recreating the 45 version)
The duration on Who Can I Be Now? should be listed as 3:31. The database currently says 3:30. When you guys said it was 3:34, you were including several seconds of silence at the end of the CD track.
As for the extra studio noises at the beginning of all three of these, that may deserve a note as well. The Who Can I Be Now? edit has the album version's fade in and thus has both noises plainly audible, as I mentioned. The Rhino releases start their fade-in after the voice, but still too early, so the second noise is pretty easy to hear, whereas on the 45 the fade-in starts slightly later so you can't really hear the noise.
All this to say that there's still no really well mastered 45 version on CD. You either have excessive noise reduction (in my opinion) or a close-but-wrong edit.
3/3/2022 - After more analysis, I've edited this post to change several details about the fade-in and fade-out, and to add the 1996 ChangesBowie recommendation.
Edited by mjb50 on 03 March 2022 at 11:42am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 03 March 2022 at 8:24am | IP Logged
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I agree with you on the noise reduction on the Rhino disc. The reverb tails are absent, and it's as you stated a a tape-type reverb (i.e. dbx / Dolby).
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 03 March 2022 at 10:07am | IP Logged
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What's the best source for the 45 edit? I have it on
Millennium Classic Rock Party.
Or, would it be better to recreate my own 45 edit?
Edited by eriejwg on 03 March 2022 at 10:16am
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 03 March 2022 at 11:47am | IP Logged
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For what it's worth, I determined that Rhino's Millennium Classic Rock Party (1999) uses the same analog transfer as Rhino's Have A Nice Decade The '70s Pop Culture Box (1998), but truncated before the start of the spoken announcement that's the last portion of the track on Decade. In other words, the music fade is completely preserved, but the dialogue is deleted.
Too bad about the NR.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 03 March 2022 at 2:29pm
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mjb50
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| Posted: 03 March 2022 at 11:53am | IP Logged
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eriejwg wrote:
| What's the best source for the 45 edit? I have it on Millennium Classic Rock Party. Or, would it be better to recreate my own 45 edit? |
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The one on Millennium Classic Rock Party isn't bad, it's mainly just the noise reduction that's a problem for those of us who are sensitive to such things. You might not even notice it.
If you really want to get the fade-in right, trim off the first 0.8s (so the file starts 0.09s before the "click"), and then fade up the next 0.7s. Also trim the silence off the end if you want to be as pedantic as me.
If you do want to create your own edit, you need to start with the album version as mastered on the 1996 ChangesBowie reissue or on The Singles 1969 to 1993. [update:] Who Can I Be Now? also works well. Just follow Ron's instructions to cut out one section on the down beat (the "1" when counting "1-2-3-4") from 2:09 to 2:54. Then follow my advice for the fade-in. PMing me is also an option.
Edited by mjb50 on 03 March 2022 at 4:48pm
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 03 March 2022 at 12:08pm | IP Logged
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I just created a 45 version from the LP version as that's
what I had available in my library from Qobuz. My recreation
runs 3:30.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: David Bowie - Fame
