| Author |
|
crapfromthepast
MusicFan
Joined: 14 September 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2237
|
| Posted: 19 February 2017 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
"Billy Don't Be A Hero" was originally recorded by Paper Lace, and was written by the same guys who wrote "The Night Chicago Died". The original Paper Lace version hit #1 in the UK in early 1974, but only got as high as #96 in the US. Bo Donaldson And The Heywoods quickly recorded a cover version, and had the hit in the US.
The oldest CD I have with the Bo Donaldson version is Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 13 (1990), where it runs the LP length of 3:38. It sounds just fine here, with a nice dynamic range, nice EQ, a hissy fade, and no trace of noise reduction. The same analog transfer is used on:- Warner Special Products' 2-CD 40 Summer Fun Hits (1993)
- Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 21 1974 (1996) - digitally exactly 0.7 dB louder
- Vol. 4 of Razor & Tie's 6-CD 70 Number One Hits Of The 70s (1998) - differently-EQ'd digital clone
- Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 17 1973-1975 (2002) - differently-EQ'd digital clone
Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 31 AM Top Twenty (1993) uses the same analog transfer as Have A Nice Day Vol. 13, but swaps the left and right channels and shortens the fade by a fraction of a second. The following discs are based on the mastering for AM Top Twenty, and all have their left and right channels swapped:- Reader's Digest's 4-CD American Pie (1998)
- Time-Life's 2-CD Seventies Music Explosion Vol. 2 Escape (2005) - digitally exactly 3.1 dB louder
Finally, Razor & Tie's Those Fabulous '70s (1990) runs the 45 length of 3:22, but cuts off the first 0.15 seconds of the opening drum fill. Avoid. Also avoid the following discs that all use the same analog transfer as Those Fabulous '70s:- Razor & Tie's 2-CD Suddenly '70s (1997)
- Razor & Tie's 1-CD Suddenly '70s (2001)
My recommendations:
For the LP length of 3:38, go with Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 13 (1990).
For the 45 length of 3:22, manually fade out Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 13 (1990) for 32 beats, downbeat-to-downbeat, from 3:06.5 to 3:22.0.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 24 February 2017 at 3:02pm
__________________
There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one Crap From The Past.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LunarLaugh
MusicFan
Joined: 13 February 2020
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: 25 January 2024 at 8:50pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Suddenly '70s contains a slightly different mix? Listen to the little guitar stabs during the verses. They are in the right channel in
on the Have a Nice Day CD but on the left in Suddenly '70s.
Edited by LunarLaugh on 25 January 2024 at 8:56pm
__________________
Listen to The Lunar Laugh!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
crapfromthepast
MusicFan
Joined: 14 September 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2237
|
| Posted: 26 January 2024 at 10:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
LL, you're right! You uncovered a mix difference between the LP and the 45, for a song that's 50 years old!
I confirmed (from the 45prof on YouTube) that the 45 mix matches what's on the Razor & Tie CDs. Unfortunately, those Razor & Tie discs cut off a bit of the opening drum fill. I found a better version on MCA's budget various-artist compilation Bubble Gum Classics (1996), which is fully intact.
I wasn't able to confirm that Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 13 matches the vinyl LP, though.
Assuming that the Rhino disc matches the LP, there are indeed panning differences between the 45 mix and the LP mix.
Listen for the crash cymbal at 0:13, near the end of the intro, which should be mostly in the right channel for both the LP and the 45 mixes. (Some of the discs with the LP version have left and right channels swapped.) After that, there are panning differences galore.
I assume, but can't confirm, that all the versions running about 3:38 are the LP mix and LP length, and all the versions running about 3:22 are the 45 mix and the 45 length.
Great ears, LL!
__________________
There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one Crap From The Past.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Todd Ireland
MusicFan
Joined: 16 October 2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4219
|
| Posted: 27 January 2024 at 9:05pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Interesting find! Much to my disappointment, however, it turns out that I don't currently have the 45 length on CD to compare to the LP length for making a closer examination. Just wondering, is the only detectable difference between the two recordings the channel panning of certain instruments? Or are there any additional instruments or perhaps mix differences, like reverb, that are unique to either version/length?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
crapfromthepast
MusicFan
Joined: 14 September 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2237
|
| Posted: 27 January 2024 at 9:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
There may be reverb differences. I couldn't tell if the 45 mix had less reverb, or just had a dead-sounding source tape compared to the Rhino mastering of the LP version.
I couldn't pick out any additional instrumentation in one vs. the other. But the panning is drastically different throughout the song. Pick a guitar or an organ sound, or even the handclaps, and the placement in the soundstage will be different for just about any of them.
__________________
There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one Crap From The Past.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Todd Ireland
MusicFan
Joined: 16 October 2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4219
|
| Posted: 27 January 2024 at 10:26pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm assuming this isn't simply a case where the stereo cables were accidentally reversed when the 45 master was produced, is it? If not, then I'll be interested to see if Pat considers adding "45 mix/LP mix" comments next to the existing database CDs containing Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods' "Billy, Don't Be a Hero". Offhand, I can't recall a past instance where a song's 45 and LP recording differed only via right-left channel panning of certain instruments.
I suppose one litmus test to help determine this would be to consider the following question: Could an informed listener readily and realistically identify each mix of this song during a random listening test without having to resort to doing a direct A/B comparison? If the answer is "no" or "probably not", then I'd say that a database comment may not really be necessary here. After all, does this situation really differ from, say, all the '60s hits that have multiple dedicated stereo mixes/remixes available on CD but aren't typically distinguished from one other in the database (they're all simply marked with an "S" designation for stereo.) Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Edited by Todd Ireland on 27 January 2024 at 10:50pm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
crapfromthepast
MusicFan
Joined: 14 September 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2237
|
| Posted: 27 January 2024 at 11:50pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
If you're asking could any one of us identify one vs. the other in isolation (just hearing one of them), then I'd answer probably not. The two mixes have existed side by side in the world for 50 years, and none of us noticed the difference before now.
I do believe that this case warrants the 45 mix/LP mix distinction. We had a similar case with "Key Largo", where the difference in panning was very slight between the 45 and LP. Here, the difference in panning is huge, and readily apparent in an A/B test (which none of us had ever done in the last 50 years!)
Edited by crapfromthepast on 27 January 2024 at 11:51pm
__________________
There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one Crap From The Past.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
davidclark
MusicFan
Joined: 17 November 2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1099
|
| Posted: 28 January 2024 at 7:28am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree with Ron, this song deserves a mix distinction. The fact that no-one
noticed for 50 years is just that - no one did. I had the LP and then the
Rhino HAND CD, which I didn't scrutinize, but didn't notice a difference -
they are the same. Then, when I was pointed to the 45 mix via this thread, I
indeed noticed a difference in the mix. I never had the 45 to listen to it.
This has happened for a number of 45s, and it's likely only this group that
would uncover such a difference. I'm sure we'll find more.
In terms of "all the '60s hits that have multiple dedicated stereo
mixes/remixes available on CD...", yeah, Pat mostly does not indicate a
"remix" when a CD version differs from the original 60 mix. Sometimes,
however he does - seems he's doing it more recently than he did years ago.
Personally, I track ALL these remixes in my own database, and I label my
files accordingly. I began doing that in the late 80s (long before I discovered
Pat's book then the database), when I first started buying CDs and noticing
some mixes were different to those I had on LP. I had begun a thread on this
very topic a number of years back, but it didn't get too far...
An example, Chuck Berry - No Particular Place To Go. Vintage Music is a
"remix" - I noticed it was different from the mix on the "St. Louis To
Liverpool" stereo LP. Pat's database doesn't distinguish between the two. I
do. I just feel it's important. Of course, to each his own..
__________________
dc1
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Todd Ireland
MusicFan
Joined: 16 October 2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4219
|
| Posted: 28 January 2024 at 12:27pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree with you, David. I, too, like to make notes in my music library of whenever new stereo remixes surface on CD that are different from their original stereo mixes and also state the year in which those remixes were produced. (i.e. "2012 stereo remix", etc.)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
AndrewChouffi
MusicFan
Joined: 24 September 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1091
|
| Posted: 29 January 2024 at 4:15am | IP Logged
|
|
|
One of the more audible differences is the 45 has very
little center-channel reverb on the lead-flute opening,
while the LP version has audible right-panned reverb on it.
Andy
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
EdisonLite
MusicFan
Joined: 18 October 2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2237
|
| Posted: 29 January 2024 at 4:18am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm glad both mixes came out on CD before the 2008 Universal fire - because
BD&H was definitely on the published list of lost tapes from the fire.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Active Topics 
Memberlist 
Search 
Help
Register 
Login
Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Bo Donaldson ... - Billy Don’t Be A Hero
