Top 40 Music on CD Forum : Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : After listening to a dub of the...

Mon, 14 Aug 2023 20:02:26 +0000

Author: crapfromthepast
Subject: 5297
Posted: 14 August 2023 at 8:02pm

After listening to a dub of the vinyl 45 and doing another comparison with the Collection CD, I agree with Aaron and my old self. The LP and 45 versions do sound like the same mix to me.

Not sure why I second-guessed my old analysis. I apologize for the confusion. My error entirely!

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : crapfromthepast wrote:I compared...

Mon, 14 Aug 2023 19:28:33 +0000

Author: aaronk
Subject: 5297
Posted: 14 August 2023 at 7:28pm

crapfromthepast wrote:

I compared the CD versions to two different needledrops (credited to GenesOldies and Mr.M), and I can confirm that they're the same mix.

I compared my dub of the promo 45 with the LP version on CD, and I don't hear any difference in the mix (just different EQ). I'm siding with Ron's original analysis on this one.

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : Edit: The following is incorrect. Years...

Sat, 12 Aug 2023 20:45:54 +0000

Author: crapfromthepast
Subject: 5297
Posted: 12 August 2023 at 8:45pm

Edit: The following is incorrect.

Years later at this point...

I did an A/B comparison between the LP version and the 45.

The 45 does indeed have the bass and drums mixed slightly louder than the LP. The placement of the instruments in the soundstage seems about the same for both. The reverb seems about the same for both. There isn't any glaring difference that would identify one vs. the other, unfortunately.

So... please disregard the editing instructions above. The 45 is a different mix, so you can't just edit off the intro of the LP mix and fade early.

Edited by crapfromthepast

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : Pat: I noticed you made the title...

Sat, 12 Aug 2023 13:21:30 +0000

Author: Jack45
Subject: 5297
Posted: 12 August 2023 at 1:21pm

Pat:
I noticed you made the title correction, but if you look carefully, the years use a fancy typeface that makes a six look almost like a zero. I checked the images in Discogs to confirm.

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : A minor correction: The Razor...

Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:31:21 +0000

Author: Santi Paradoa
Subject: 5297
Posted: 12 August 2023 at 8:31am

A minor correction: The Razor & Tie Collection on CD has a
typo in this thread as well as in the online database. It's
supposed to be 1976-1994 (not 1970-1994). This might help
collectors looking for the correct CD.

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : Did you know that "Devil...

Sat, 17 Sep 2016 21:19:25 +0000

Author: crapfromthepast
Subject: 5297
Posted: 17 September 2016 at 9:19pm

Did you know that "Devil Woman" is a remake? It was originally released in 1975 by Kristine Sparkle, who co-wrote it (under her real name of Christine Hodgson) with Terry Britten ("What's Love Got To Do With It"). Cliff Richard covered it a year later in 1976, and changed the narrator from third person to first person in the lyrics. Still a great record, and one that still gets occasional spins on classic rock KQRS/Minneapolis as of 2016.

The US 45 runs 3:21. During the chorus, there's a shaky instrument in the right channel. The US 45 doesn't appear on CD anywhere.

Fortunately, the 45 can easily be edited from the versions that are available on CD. I compared the CD versions to two different needledrops (credited to GenesOldies and Mr.M), and I can confirm that they're the same mix.

(They sound the same, with some EQ differences. Plus, if you visually compare the waveforms, the 45 and CD versions have features that look the same. If there were mix differences, like additional reverb on the drums, or a volume increase for the drums, you'd be able to see those mix differences in the waveform. Visual comparison doesn't help you much for excessively compressed/limited tracks, but this 1976 track has terrific dynamic range on the 45 and on CD.)

I'm not 100% sure what to call the versions on CD, since I don't know what was on the 1976 I'm Nearly Famous vinyl LP. With that caveat, I'll just refer to them as "LP version".

As of 2016, the song has appeared on exactly five CDs in the US, and I happen to have all five of them. All five have nice dynamic range (no excessive compression/limiting), nice EQ, and no evidence of noise reduction.

The oldest is Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 22 Seventies Top Forty (1992), which has its left and right channels swapped. On top of that, the source tapes aren't the greatest.

The next is Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 20 (1993), which has the correct left/right channels, but uses source tapes that are even worse than the Time-Life disc. The song sounds completely lifeless, with all the ambiance sucked out of it. It sounds like when you accidentally turned on the Dolby B noise reduction on your cassette deck, but the cassette didn't use noise reduction at all. And I can tell that it's on the source tapes, and not added by Rhino - you can hear a nice tape hiss on the fade. Avoid "Devil Woman" on Have A Nice Day Vol. 20 at all costs.

Next is Razor & Tie's Collection 1970-1994 (1994). As much as I've maligned some Steve Hoffman masterings for other discs, "Devil Woman" sounds amazing here. Listen to the opening thump of the bass drum. On the other CDs listed here, the bass drum is just a thud. On this disc, you can hear some of the higher harmonics on the tail end of each thump. That's what a real bass drum sounds like. Outstanding, and significantly better than any of the other discs here.

Finally, Time-Life's 2-CD Seventies Music Explosion Vol. 4 Magic (2005) is digitally exactly 0.9 dB louder than Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 22 Seventies Top Forty (1992), and has the same issues as that disc (left and right channels swapped, source tapes not the greatest). There's a box set version of this disc with the same mastering.

My recommendation for the LP version (or whatever this version is): Razor & Tie's Collection 1970-1994 (1994).

Finally, editing instructions for creating the US 45 version from Collection 1970-1994:

Remove the first 16 beats from 0:00.0 to 0:09.7 of the LP version on Collection 1970-1994.

Segment 1
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:00.0 to 3:21.0 of the US 45 edit
Extends from 0:09.7 to 3:30.7 of the LP version on Collection 1970-1994

Fade
24 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 3:08.8 to 3:21.0 of the US 45 edit
Extends from 3:18.5 to 3:30.7 of the LP version on Collection 1970-1994

I did find an insignificant speed difference of about 0.2% between the CD and the vinyl 45, amounting to about 0.5 seconds over the course of the whole song. You can safely ignore the speed difference.

Edited by crapfromthepast

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : John, thanks for the in-depth...

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:04:37 +0000

Author: Bwci Bo
Subject: 5297
Posted: 20 October 2015 at 7:04pm

John, thanks for the in-depth analysis of this track. Like you, I also believe that the US 45 is a different mix, albeit a very subtle one. However, I am basing my conclusion on my ears alone, as I have not conducted any spectra or waveform comparisons as Brian has.

Therefore, it looks like the jury is still out on this one.

Oh, and John, your sense of humour in some of your posts appeals to me!

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : I spent about half an hour comparing...

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:42:04 +0000

Author: Brian W.
Subject: 5297
Posted: 20 October 2015 at 2:42pm

I spent about half an hour comparing the two versions last
night, and I'm really not convinced that they are different
mixes at all. When I EQ the version from "Sounds of the
Seventies: '70s Dance Party 1975-1976" to match the EQ of
the alleged remix, then switch back and forth between them
throughout the song, I don't hear ANYTHING that would make
me think this was a different mix.

It sounds to me like the extra punchiness is simply
brighter EQ with a little more bottom end. All elements
seem to be in the identical place in the stereo spectrum
and seem to be at the same volume level in both versions.

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : Robert Porter's analysis...

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:16:46 +0000

Author: Yah Shure
Subject: 5297
Posted: 20 October 2015 at 2:16pm

Robert Porter's analysis of "Devil Woman" was quite a fascinating read! What I did find interesting about the epic entry was that although he frequently brings up the shortened fade on the US 45, he never says so much as a word about the US 45's intro having been edited. Witness the one mention that does include the word "edited":

Devil Woman (Edited Remix Version)

    Running Time: 3:35
    Released On:
        Devil Woman 7" single (1976 May � USA � Rocket Record Company PIG-40574) (and others)

The US Rocket 45 states a time of 3:21 and plays an actual 3:22, not the 3:35 cited above. That an analysis as highly detailed as Mr. Porter's would nevertheless neglect to mention the US 45's shortened intro in at least the above listing seems a rather glaring omission.

Then there's this, near the bottom of the entry:

In the USA, it was decided that Devil Woman was a good single, but it needed a little more punch. So it was remastered, giving the bass and drums more kick. In addition, the song's fade out was changed to slightly earlier, cutting the last two lines of the fifth chorus-- it's assumed that this earlier fade was inadvertant and done by an engineer who was a little too fast on the knob.

No disrespect to Mr. Porter for making an assumption, but there's never anything "inadvertent" when it comes to earlier fades on US 45s to keep them even a bit more decidedly under the critical 3:30 maximum timing benchmark set by more than a few radio programmers at the time. And no, I'm not about to touch that line about an engineer being "a little too fast on the knob." ;)

So how do the American vinyl releases compare? All of the following are U.S. releases on the Rocket label:

1. LP track from a promo-stickered copy of the I'm Nearly Famous LP (Rocket 2210) in its original cover, showing Cliff with pen and pad in hand. MCA Pinckneyville pressing; deadwax is "MCA-1023 W-2".

2. LP track from a promo-stickered copy of the I'm Nearly Famous LP (Rocket 2210) in the quickly-revised cover with the green border, a photo of Cliff and an "includes" blurb mentioning three songs. Pinckneyville pressing; deadwax is the same as the above copy: "MCA-1023 W-2".

3. DJ 45 (Rocket 40574) on the all-burgundy label, with the -P- Pinckneyville deadwax logo. Stampers on both sides of the stereo/stereo promo were sourced from the same lacquer and bear identical deadwax writing, with the second "5" of the MC5259EW2 being overwritten, due to an incorrect "4" having been initially inscribed in the same spot. The songwriting is credited to "Christine Hodgson-Terry Britten" and the publishing to "Chappell & Co., Inc. (ASCAP)".

4. Stock 45 (Rocket 40574) on the standard green-and-blue Rocket label, with the machine-stamped [o]-G-[o] MCA Gloversville deadwax logo and a hand-etched <>-P-<> Pinckneyville logo on the A side, along with the normal, machine-stamped -P- Pinckneyville deadwax logo on the B side, "Love On (Shine On)". Deadwax reads "MC 5259E W1".

I do have two other stock 45s that match this one, except that the A sides have no Gloversville deadwax symbol and both sides have the machine-stamped -P- Pinckneyville deadwax logo, with a much smaller deadwax inscription of "MC5259EW3". The A-side songwriting credit goes to "Kristine Authors-Terry Britten" and publishing to "Unichappell Music, Inc. (BMI)" on all three stock 45s.

Analysis:

A. Both LP tracks (#1 and #2) are identical. Listed times are 3:26 and actual times are 3:28.

B. Both the #3 DJ and #4 stock 45s are identical (3:21 listed, 3:22.7 actual.)

C. After removing the opening 8.5 seconds of the LP track, the US 45 actually runs slower than the US LP track, by a difference of approximately 1 second at the point where the 45 fade ends.

D. I agree with Brian that it's hard to tell much difference between the LP and US 45 versions, based on the sample comparison provided by Robert Porter. After scrutinizing my own vinyl, I found that there is an audible, yet not overly-obvious difference between the US LP and 45 mixes. Mr. Porter was correct in saying that the bass and drums are mixed hotter on the US 45. While it's possible that might simply be due to some judicious EQing, to my ears, it does sound like those two elements were brought slightly more forward on the American single. It's enough to make some of the other instruments during the intro seem a little less apparent without actually pushing them back in the mix. The added bass and drum presence may have seemed like nothing more than a little extra pixie dust, but that was the "je ne sais quoi" about it that made the record sound even bigger and more devilish on the radio.

Edited by Yah Shure

Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don�t Talk : To be fair, the author of that...

Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:11:08 +0000

Author: Bwci Bo
Subject: 5297
Posted: 19 October 2015 at 10:11pm

To be fair, the author of that website does state that it's the single mix appearing on those CDs, as opposed to the single version. Presumably they created this new mix using the original LP version (which is also the 45 version outside of the US) and the result was the version found on the 2001 'I'm Nearly Famous' and a bunch of other CDs. This mix was obviously what was used for the US 45, but they decided to remove the first 8 seconds from the introduction and fade the ending a little earlier. I think the vinyl 45 may also run a little faster?
It would still be fair to say that no CDs in the database contain the US 45 version. The entries which state LP version would need to be checked to see if they contain the original mix or the punchier single mix. And if they contain the latter, maybe they could be annotated with LP version but 45 mix or something to that effect?

Edited by Bwci Bo