Top 40 Music on CD Forum : John Lennon - Stand By Me

John Lennon - Stand By Me : Yah Shure wrote:I'm still...

Wed, 11 May 2011 23:48:27 +0000

Author: EdisonLite
Subject: 6203
Posted: 11 May 2011 at 11:48pm

Yah Shure wrote:

I'm still scratching my head a bit over this one, though: Mark indicated to me that the string overdub falls within the 8 to 10 kilohertz range. Top-40 radio was still largely an AM medium in 1975, so why bother adding an 8-10kHz string to the 45, when it would have been well above the highest frequency response of most typical AM receivers then in use?

In 1975, I was listening to pop radio on the FM dial only. (Actually, I was since 1972 - when I started listening to the radio.) By 1975 or 1976, I actually had a good stereo hi-fi (separate components) and not just FM on a radio. All my friends at this point were listening to FM stations, and in fact I didn't know a single person who listened to AM radio in my middle school. So to answer the above question, my guess is the label was aiming toward FM listeners and, considering John Lennon was such a major, important artist, that probably factored in as well. I would equate this to when stereo LPs were first being manufactured. Very few people had stereo systems then but labels were looking ahead to the future.

Still, it's such a minor mix difference in "Stand By Me", I can totally understand all the head scratching on this one :)

Edited by EdisonLite

John Lennon - Stand By Me : The synth may be on the multi...

Wed, 11 May 2011 19:52:03 +0000

Author: Bill Cahill
Subject: 6203
Posted: 11 May 2011 at 7:52pm

The synth may be on the multi track and just not mixed in for all versions. I notice on the Gimme Some Truth CD (which claims to be original LP mixes) the synth strings appear to fade up and can be heard slightly for a split second at :51 as John finishes the phrase "stand by me". Then the distorted refrain wipes out any evidence of it being on the song, but it may be there after that point to be felt, not heard. (So this version on "Truth", while missing the synth on the intro, appears to have some synth starting at :51.) On the 45 where the synth starts on the song intro, the synth can be heard all the way to that :51 point and then gets wiped out by the refrain, but it might be buried into the distortion on that mix too. On the actual remix that was done for some CDs (which has less distortion), the synth string does not pop on for that split second. And yes, these are DOG EAR notes.

Edited by Bill Cahill

John Lennon - Stand By Me : Mark, thank you very much for...

Wed, 11 May 2011 09:03:52 +0000

Author: Yah Shure
Subject: 6203
Posted: 11 May 2011 at 9:03am

Mark, thank you very much for your detailed analysis! Hearing test, indeed. Also, thanks to Bill for the added listening tips.

I'm still scratching my head a bit over this one, though: Mark indicated to me that the string overdub falls within the 8 to 10 kilohertz range. Top-40 radio was still largely an AM medium in 1975, so why bother adding an 8-10kHz string to the 45, when it would have been well above the highest frequency response of most typical AM receivers then in use?

John Lennon - Stand By Me : Hi all again.... Yes, and many...

Mon, 09 May 2011 15:18:41 +0000

Author: MMathews
Subject: 6203
Posted: 09 May 2011 at 3:18pm

Hi all again....

Yes, and many thanks to John Pratt, he was kind enough to send me a test file with the intro from his copy of the promo 45, both stereo/mono sides, the original vinyl LP, and the CD "Power To The People" (albeit the last sample was a download, but i'm sure accurate.)

Yes, folks this is indeed a hearing test- as it happens my upper mid-range and hi freq hearing is very sensitive, so to me this was easy to hear, but honestly this string overdub is exactly what David says, very subtle...and it's low in the mix, likely down about -10 db compared to the guitar.
Near as i could figure in my wave editor, the strings (or synth-string) occur in the 8-10k freq. range.

So:
-Both sides of DJ 45 HAVE the strings.
-The vinyl album does NOT have the strings.
-Neither mix/issue of the CD of the album has the strings.

Conclusion: 45 version different mix from LP version.

Cd's known (so far) to contain the 45 version:
John Lennon Collection
Legend

There ya have it - and thanks John, for sending the vinyl dubs and wow, very clean records and crystal clean dubs from them.

-Mark M

John Lennon - Stand By Me : well, after having it pointed...

Sun, 08 May 2011 06:03:02 +0000

Author: davidclark
Subject: 6203
Posted: 08 May 2011 at 6:03am

well, after having it pointed out to me exactly what to listen for, and MM
sending me a sample of the beginning of the 45, original LP, (and remix), I
can now state that I hear the difference between the 45 and LP, although it is
probably the most subtle difference I have ever come across.

John Lennon - Stand By Me : On the above mentioned tracks...

Fri, 06 May 2011 10:35:03 +0000

Author: Bill Cahill
Subject: 6203
Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:35am

On the above mentioned tracks that have the synth strings, listening with headphones, five seconds or so in the introduction, synth strings start dead center in the stereo stage.

The organ that starts with the song is more to the side.

John Lennon - Stand By Me : Ringmaster: thanks for the further...

Thu, 05 May 2011 13:32:25 +0000

Author: Yah Shure
Subject: 6203
Posted: 05 May 2011 at 1:32pm

Ringmaster: thanks for the further clarification. Once the lab results are in... :)

Mark: thanks for giving me an idea of what I should be listening for, as your "very high-pitched violins" clue was quite helpful.

And that just might be the key. As I mentioned in my very first post on this board (the nearest equivalent of the Hoffman Forum's equipment profile, perhaps) I do wear hearing aids. But I don't wear them while listening to or working on music, due to feedback issues with headphones.

So I really cranked the headphone level up to listen to a comparison one more time, knowing fully well that it would cause ringing in my ears for the next day or two. But even then, I couldn't pick up any differences. Are we talking a couple kiloHertz higher than even Mantovani's cascading strings, here? And why are the rest of you all baying at the moon? :)

Edited by Yah Shure

John Lennon - Stand By Me : My initial observation was based...

Thu, 05 May 2011 13:03:02 +0000

Author: Ringmaster_D
Subject: 6203
Posted: 05 May 2011 at 1:03pm

My initial observation was based only on CD sources of this material, as I do not own the original vinyl. I cross-referenced my findings with the "Eight Arms To Hold You" book by Chip Madinger which is perhaps the most respected source of all solo Beatles variations. Sure enough, the book confirmed that the additional synth string overdub was added specifially for the original (and re-issued) 45 releases. All Chip's research, by the way, is based on first-hand observation of original sources. I'll be anxiously awaiting MM's confirmation of this.

John Lennon - Stand By Me : Hmmm. quite a turmoil over this...

Thu, 05 May 2011 12:51:29 +0000

Author: MMathews
Subject: 6203
Posted: 05 May 2011 at 12:51pm

Hmmm.

quite a turmoil over this one :-)

some of us are hearing these differences quite clearly, others do not hear it at all.

In some of the posts, i am seeing that the organ and the strings are being confused. The LP version and most Cd's have a clear organ in the intro, as well as the 2004 remix and of the LP.
But the CD's "Collection" and "Legend" have a overdub of very hi-pitched violins dubbed in as well, at a low volume.

I'm currently trying to scare up a vinyl 45 dub and LP dub so i can hear those as well.
All i know is, my CD findings agree exactly with Ringmaster's, and Bill Cahill's.
If i can prepare an easy file for comparison's, i'll send that around. . Stand by...
MM

John Lennon - Stand By Me : MMathews wrote:To clarify,...

Thu, 05 May 2011 11:20:20 +0000

Author: Yah Shure
Subject: 6203
Posted: 05 May 2011 at 11:20am

MMathews wrote:

To clarify, Yah Shure, you are saying you hear no difference between your Lp or either side of the DJ 45, but i'm not sure if that means they all have the strings, or none of them do....

Mark, I was only saying that the DJ 45 and the original Apple LP had identical intros. i.e. the DJ 45 and the 1975 Rock 'N' Roll vinyl LP track are not different. (EDIT: Correction: they actually ARE different, as Mark details further downthread.)

Having only ever heard one version of this track over the years, I dug out the only CD I have "Stand By Me" on (a circa-1990 Capitol issue of The John Lennon Collection) and found it to match both my DJ 45 and 1975 vinyl LP. I downloaded the Power To The People The Hits set, which Bill stated does NOT include the string/synth overdub, but found it to be no different from any of the others I'd compared above.

I'm reading about string ensembles or a string synth that "comes in clearly at the 0:05 mark," but I don't hear either. All I hear on all five of the versions I have is the same, somewhat-muted synth that begins at :00, changes chords at :04 and remains somewhat muted until the added synth flourishes at :14, just before John's vocal starts.

Ringmaster's initial assertion was that there was a 45/LP difference. Pat has already weighed in and said that he hears no difference between his 45 (commercial, I presume, Pat?) and original vinyl LP. I likewise hear no difference between my DJ 45 and original LP. Based on our findings, it would appear that the DJ and commercial 45s are therefore the same, and that there is therefore no 45/LP distinction in the original 1975 vinyl releases.

Ringmaster, was your initial 45/LP statement based on your own actual vinyl 45 and original Apple vinyl LP comparisons?

Edited by Yah Shure