https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/ Copyright (c) 2006-2013 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Wed, 22 Apr 2026 03:10:17 +0000 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:54:38 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 12.07 360 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=6431 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum//images/Top-40-Music-on-CD-Forum-Logo.png https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/ https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31432&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31432 Author: KentT
Subject: 6431
Posted: 05 September 2011 at 6:54pm

The mono 45 had punch which virtually no Stereo version ever had. The Stereo LP mix didn't collapse to mono well on this track, it had wonky phase issues (one reason why the DJ LP was mono. And never available commercially that way).]]> Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:54:38 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31432&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31432 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31417&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31417 Author: MMathews
Subject: 6431
Posted: 01 September 2011 at 11:32pm

I agree with all above.
Alas, a forensic report on the mastering or mix
differences isn't really going to sell one on it one way
or the other.
But, for me, any groove is only enhanced in stereo.
I can't help it, just how the head is wired.
But i do like my stereo to resemble its mono counterpart
in things like pitch and EQ. :-)

-MM   

]]> Thu, 01 Sep 2011 23:32:29 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31417&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31417 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31413&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31413 Author: Yah Shure
Subject: 6431
Posted: 01 September 2011 at 5:34pm

I spent an hour or so this afternoon putzing around with a stereo Radio Active Gold reissue 45 I bought in the late '70s when Buddah Records discontinued the series. (Its B-side, "No Help From Me," remained in mono.) This stereo 45 has more bottom end to it than any other stereo vinyl or CD track I've heard of "Green Tambourine."

I EQ'd its bottom end, added compression and folded it down. It resembled the mono 45 in some respects, but in the end, it never found "the groove" that the mono 45 mix has. To me, the ultra-wide stereo mix has too much disparate "stuff" going on, and all of that intricate detail causes the ultimate focus of the record - it's "groove" - to become diffused. It's the aural equivalent of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Extra EQ and compression alone can't get that focus back. It's "the groove," or what David refers to as the "feeling" that is the driving force behind this record, and I think the mono mix carries a lot more emotional impact because of that. It's that certain "je ne sais quoi" thing about a record that you may not be able to put your finger on to explain, but you know it when you hear it. It's all about finding "the groove."

From a technical standpoint, the stereo mix is a real trip in itself. I can and do appreciate that, but only on a technical level; it doesn't engage me emotionally at all. If the stereo mix floats one's boat, that's wonderful. But I listen primarily in mono, and no fold-down of even that fairly bass-heavy reissue 45's ultra-wide stereo mix matches the "groove" of the mono single.   ]]> Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:34:50 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31413&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31413 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31411&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31411 Author: Hykker
Subject: 6431
Posted: 01 September 2011 at 5:28am

MMathews wrote: But i also ask, if someone says a stereo mix falls short or is missing something, i ask myself, "What's missing?" To do that all one needs do is carefully compare them. sometimes it's a mixing differences, sometimes an overdub, but OFTEN it's nothing more than EQ and compression.

I would have to add the limitations of 3-track recording (which was pretty common in those days) giving it an artificial hard-left, hard-right or centered tracks that just sounds weak compared to the "fatter" mono mixdown.

]]> Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:28:35 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31411&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31411 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31409&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31409 Author: The Hits Man
Subject: 6431
Posted: 01 September 2011 at 3:36am

Well, Mark, I disagree with you on Motown, but that's a
discussion for another thread.

But, anyway, if you can bring out the bass on the stereo,
it would be nice. but, I think it's more than just bad
mastering, since all the stereo versions are weak-sounding.]]> Thu, 01 Sep 2011 03:36:00 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31409&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31409 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31408&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31408 Author: MMathews
Subject: 6431
Posted: 31 August 2011 at 11:18pm

Ok

Thanks to The Hits Man, who sent me a nice dub of the 45
of Green Tambourine. I a/b'd them, and as i suspected
it's just another case of the mastering making the mixing
engineer look bad.
Now, before i even begin here, stereo vs. mono for 60's
music is subjective, i prefer stereo, many prefer mono.
That's just how it is, period.

But i also ask, if someone says a stereo mix falls short
or is missing something, i ask myself, "What's missing?"
To do that all one needs do is carefully compare them.
sometimes it's a mixing differences, sometimes an
overdub, but OFTEN it's nothing more than EQ and
compression.

Many stereo mixes that have the famous "bad rep" (like
Motown) are far more a case of mastering later than the
way the mix was really made. Sure in the case of Motown,
a few mistakes were made in a few stereo versions, but
most were actually great mixes, once you put the correct
EQ, and/or speed back in them, which is I'm sure how the
mixing engineers heard them ... but were lost over years
of running flat, un-EQ'd tapes, making copies, etc
etc.
I could go on and on ......but here's the result of my
comparison for Green Tambourine:

All the elements of the mono mix are present in the
stereo mix, and i was even mistaken about the echo on
"play, play, play...".. once you correct the PITCH of the
stereo mix, the echo sounds the same, and synchs
perfectly.
Btw, my source for the stereo was The Buddah Box, which
contains mostly stereo LP versions, to answer the above
Q. But it has the cleanest copies i've heard to date.

The stereo mix was running too fast (for those with a
pitch editor, it was a -28 % of a semi-tone shift to
match the 45, which is quite a lot!)
It was also EQ'd poorly with less BASS than the 45 has,
and far less compression, which is really the only thing
you want for the LP, rarely is it a good idea to use the
same compression on a stereo mix that was used on the
mono. They for playing in differing environments.
But, one can add enough to emulate the punch needed on a
particular song, in most cases.

But in this one, the lack of compression, and less bass,
causes the DRUMS to be almost inaudible on the stereo,
while they seem to thump loudly thru the whole 45. This
is the different "feel" David describes.

Once you correct the speed of the LP version, and EQ it
much more like the 45, and add a reasonable amount of
compression/limiting, you get the same basic mix, except
in stereo. The stereo mix has no added reverb vs. the
45.
There's my report. Hope it helps!

Hopefully, next time its released someone will pull the
mono mix off the Pye Story CD, OR if using the stereo,
simply masters it more like the 45 was.   

-MM

     

Edited by MMathews]]> Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:18:07 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31408&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31408 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31404&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31404 Author: The Hits Man
Subject: 6431
Posted: 31 August 2011 at 5:05pm

What does the Buddah Box have on it? The SQ on a lot of
stuff is suspect, even though it was done by Bob Hyde.]]> Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:05:14 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31404&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31404 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31402&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31402 Author: bwolfe
Subject: 6431
Posted: 31 August 2011 at 11:20am

When they did a Buddah two disc history some years ago they needed to use needle drops for single versions of the songs featured. "Down At Lulu's" and "Simon Says" are two I recall. Maybe they don't have the 45 masters of those recordings much like the ABC/Dunhill stuff?]]> Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:20:43 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31402&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31402 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31395&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31395 Author: Hykker
Subject: 6431
Posted: 30 August 2011 at 6:49am

bwolfe wrote: The 45 version of this one is far superior to any hollow sounding stereo. It just seems full (yeah its mono), the stereo seems empty.

This is true with a lot of Buddah singles from that era.]]> Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:49:45 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31395&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31395 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31389&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31389 Author: The Hits Man
Subject: 6431
Posted: 29 August 2011 at 12:52pm

Problem is, most CD reissue producers are stuck on stereo.]]> Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:52:52 +0000 https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PID=31389&title=lemon-pipers-green-tambourine#31389