Amy Grant - "Baby Baby"

aaronk wrote: ...It is the second one that I fear might be opening a can of worms, but let's tackle the issue. In addition to the actual name of the mix, Pat has included "45 version" in the description. Traditionally, "45 version" has been a catch-all phrase to mean "single version."... There are many other instances where "45 version" has been used when in fact those songs don't even have a vinyl 45 (songs from 1990 and later). To me, this has always been confusing and in some cases has caused me to research further to determine exactly which single format that version appeared on. A question for all: How would you like to see the database updated in the future to make it clearer?

I personally have always labeled all songs in my own digital music library with "single version", when applicable, rather than "45 version", for the simple reason that "single version" is a more all-encompassing term that can include anything released on any commercial single format. Of course, when Pat started documenting Top 40 music on compact disc back in the '80s, it was before this whole mess with multiple physical format configurations began to spiral out of control. Therefore, it's understandable why he elected to go with the "45 version" description. After all, vinyl 45s were the only commercial single format made available on the mass market from 1955 until around mid-1987. Thus, I have no qualms with continuing to use "45 version" as a database comment for Top 40 hits released during that time span. However, once cassette singles started to surface around mid-1987, and then the CD singles were introduced shortly after, the "45 version" comment does indeed start to become somewhat problematic and can generate confusion, especially in those instances you bring up, Aaron, in which a song was never even issued on a vinyl 45 release!

For songs released from mid-1987 to the present, it would almost certainly be a herculean and painstaking task at this juncture to go back through the database and potentially change many thousands of "45 version" comments into something more accurate. This would no doubt involve a tremendous amount of collective research and effort. However, I'm thinking this may be one of those necessary "evils" we need to tackle over the course of the future, one entry at a time, in our relentless quest for complete and total database accuracy. I suppose the "good news" here is that physical commercial single formats largely disappeared from the U.S. market by the early 2000s, and so the "45 version" comment becomes much less of an issue from that point forward. This means the bulk of the "45 version" comments needing modified would be largely concentrated among Top 40 singles released roughly between the years 1988 and 2001. Hey, we have never been ones to shy away from a major challenge, so I'm sure we could probably assemble enough forum members here to roll up our sleeves and help tackle this issue if anyone else feels up to it!

And, hey, I guess while we're at it, should we also consider changing "LP version" comments (which traditionally refers to a vinyl "Long Play" release) to "album version" for albums that got issued on 8-tracks and cassettes in the '70s and '80s? (Yikes!! LOL) Eh, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we probably don't need to go this far, given how no one here appears to have ever gotten confused by "LP version" comments for albums made available in other formats besides vinyl. (And thank God for that! :-))

Paul Haney wrote: FWIW, at Record Research we consider 1990-98 to be the "cassette single" era, when that was the dominant commercial single format in the United States.

That completely ignores all those "maxi" and "promo" CD's that ended up at radio stations and the affordability of a CD player at that point in time. While the "cassette single" era may have been dominant when I went shopping in the 90's as a consumer I never chose the cassette single, I went for the CD single.

I mean if you want to be technical Adele and Taylor Swift release CD albums. For all intent purposes the "top 40 on CD" releases went all digital about 3-4 years ago minus these two artists. Sure you may have an artist who releases a CD or vinyl but streaming and digital releases have replaced the physical product.

Not sure if Aaron wants to comment on Pat's database and if any top 40 hit artist since Taylor Swift and Adele has actually released a CD and not a digital download.

Just my two cents on the modern state of music and why top40musicdigital is now here to stay sadly.

Todd Ireland wrote: For songs released from mid-1987 to the present, it would almost certainly be a herculean and painstaking task at this juncture to go back through the database and potentially change many thousands of "45 version" comments into something more accurate.

Possibly not, because on the backend where the database tables sit, I could have the programmer do a find-and-replace. For instance, all entries that say "45 version" could be changed to "single version" using the "Replace" command. It might be more difficult, however, to change only entries from certain years. Also, before we make a change like this, we would need to talk through all the possible ramifications, and I'd want a lot of opinions from the regular database users.

Todd Ireland wrote: should we also consider changing "LP version" comments (which traditionally refers to a vinyl "Long Play" release) to "album version" for albums that got issued on 8-tracks and cassettes in the '70s and '80s? (Yikes!! LOL) Eh, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we probably don't need to go this far, given how no one here appears to have ever gotten confused by "LP version" comments for albums made available in other formats besides vinyl. (And thank God for that! :-))

Exactly right. "LP version" covers all "album" formats in nearly every case. It's rare that you'd find a different "album version" on a cassette vs. vinyl LP vs. CD. Yes, it does happen from time to time, but it's nowhere near as problematic as singles. There is absolutely no consistency between 7" vinyl, cassette singles, 2-track CD singles, "maxi" CD singles, and 12" singles in terms of which version(s) are featured on each.

In software and database design, inflexibility and overengineering can easily overtake you. You can get bogged down thinking of edge cases and trying to solve evermore obscure problems. There are diminishing returns; don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

There's wisdom in just enabling a degree of ad-hoc-ness, e.g. having an unstructured free-text field for "wild" data (such as prose explanations) which doesn't fit in the usual boxes. The result may not be ideal, consistent, or pretty, but it will at least be useful, if not incrementally improving with time.

In other words, don't sweat the messiness, as long as it's the exception rather than the rule.

Todd Ireland wrote: ...but there are certainly database comments that are considerably more detailed and complicated than for "Baby Baby".

Yes, absolutely right. I'm not really concerned about those types of cases, as they will always be messy. It's not the "wordiness" that concerned me in the case of "Baby Baby." Rather, it's seeing a designation like "commercial 45, cassette single, and LP version" and wondering why it needs to be labeled this way at all. If the commercial 45/cassette A-side and LP versions are the same, it would seem no designator is needed. The fact that airplay was split between the A- and B-sides doesn't really change anything, other than making sure database users are aware that the 7" Heart In Motion Remix was included on the various single configurations and does appear on some database CDs. Does the way I currently have it sum it up well enough?