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(Sittin’ On) The Dock Of The Bay - Otis R

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Ringmaster_D View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 October 2013 at 2:34pm
Hello all.

I was reading a recent thread on the Steve Hoffman board
and they referenced that the mono mix of Dock Of The Bay
by Otis Redding on the Stax-Volt box was not the correct
single mix. Here's Steve Hoffman's quote:

The wrong mono mix is on the Stax box.

The right mono mix (I have the original VOLT 45 promo) is
not on any digital disc that I know of.

The stereo mix is mighty nice if you get a good CD that
has been mastered correctly. I prefer it to the mono
which is rare for me.

The thread later goes on to state that there may have
been multiple mono single mixes. I don't have the
original 45, but I thought someone might have more info
to get to the bottom of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 4:28pm
Dave, my 1968 Volt 157 promo 45 has a listed time of (2:38), an actual
time of (2:36), and deadwax info of "VLT-13684-1 1".

I also own two Volt 157 stock copies. One has the black and red label
design (which is the same label design as found on my promo, but the
label colors on my promo are, not surprisingly, black and white instead.)
Listed time (2:38), actual time (2:41), with deadwax info of "VLT-13684-
6". My second stock copy has a multi-colored "Volt Records" (alternating
green, orange and red with each letter) a red lightning bolt, with an
orange, black and brown label, which I believe Volt was transitioning over
to, by late spring of '68. This copy has a listed time of (2:38), an actual
time of (2:42), with deadwax info of "VLT-13684-7".

Based on both your post and my own findings here, Dave, I believe further
examination is necessary. Therefore, I will forward the above 45 versions
to Aaron, for further analysis, as his busy schedule permits.

Edited by jimct
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yah Shure Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2013 at 8:57pm
Listed (2:38) actual (2:40) on my stock copy (a Plastic Products pressing; deadwax is "VLT-13684-15".)

In comparing the two CDs I have that contain this recording in mono with my Volt 157 45, I find that there are, indeed, two different mono mixes:

1) Otis' vocal is way up front, and everything else - bass, horns, percussion, etc. - is decidedly in the background. This is the mix on my Volt 157 stock 45, and it sounds very similar to the track on the Atlantic Rhythm And Blues 1947-1974 Volume 6 CD (Atlantic 81298).

2) Otis' vocal is moved quite noticeably back in the mix, with the bass, horns, etc. moved more forward than on mix #1. This mix actually packs more punch than #1, but Otis sounds like he's stepped back from the mic a couple of feet and gets a little lost in the crowd (the guitar and horns overpower him at times.) The CD I have this mix on is disc two of the 1992 Rhino promo sampler PRO2 90129 The Rhino . Atlantic . Remasters Collection, which sports the "Rhino Atlantic & Atco REmasters" logo on the back. The very beginning of the intro is clipped off on this disc.

When I fold the stereo track from the Time Life Super Hits 1968 CD to mono, it doesn't sound like either of the two mono mixes above. Otis' vocal is more upfront (like on mix #1) but the drums, in particular, are far more in the background than on mix #1.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eriejwg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2013 at 10:07am
Did some searching around on Rhapsody. I found, what sounds
like the 45 mix John describes above, on a collection
called "Platoon And Songs Of The Era." I have sent a file
to John (Yah Shure) for analysis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yah Shure Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2013 at 11:54am
John, your file from Platoon And Other Songs Of The Era does match the mix on my Volt 45 and the Atlantic Rhythm And Blues 1947-1974 Volume 6 CD; however - unlike the Atlantic disc - it sounds like the mono tape was transferred with a stereo playback head.

Mix differences aside (and that's what I was concentrating on during last night's comparisons) there is a surprising difference in sound quality between these two digital sources and my vinyl Volt 45: the 45 sounds very crisp and clear, with plenty of detail, while the two digital sources are duller than last month's dishwater.

UPDATE: I also compared the Volt 45 with a mid-'70s gold-label Specialty-pressed Atlantic Oldies Series reissue 45 (deadwax "VLT 13684-10", actual time just shy of 2:41) and I'd still give the edge to the Volt 45 (which, I should note, does have a pretty fair amount of hum during the fade.) The two are sourced from the same mono mix, and while the Volt still sounds better, the differences are not as pronounced as they were with the two digital sources. There's also a minor speed difference and the reissue 45's fade kicks in just a hair earlier than it does on the Volt single.

Edited by Yah Shure
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crapfromthepast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2013 at 8:22pm
Stereo version

I think the first version to appear on CD was the stereo version on Warner Special Products' Ultimate (1986). There are a bunch of CDs that appear to use the same analog transfer as Ultimate, but all have a slightly longer fade:
  • Atlantic's Golden Age Of Black Music 1960-1970 (1988; nice and hissy)
  • Atlantic's Atlantic Rhythm And Blues 1947-74 Disc 7 (1991 release - not the same set that Yah mentioned above; differently EQ'd digital clone of Golden Age Of Black Music 1960-1970; hiss drastically reduced, which is not really a good thing)
  • Time-Life's Solid Gold Soul Vol. 3 1968 (1991)
  • Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 6 The 1960s (2000; differently EQ'd digital clone of Solid Gold Soul)
Stereo version with left/right channels reversed

There was one Time-Life disc that was based on the same analog transfer as all of the above, but had its left/right channels reversed - Time-Life's Superhits Vol. 2 1968 (1990). There are a few discs that use the same analog transfer as Superhits, and all have their left/right channels reversed:
  • Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 4 1968 (1990; digitally identical to Superhits)
  • JCI's Only Rock 'N Roll 1965-1969 (1994; fades about a second earlier than others)
  • Time-Life's Singers And Songwriters Vol. 31 Classics (2001; digitally exactly 0.532 dB louder than Superhits)
Two stereo outliers, both with the correct left/right channels and neither one based on Ultimate:
  • Warner Special Products' Freedom Rock Disc 2 (1987; fade truncated - avoid)
  • Simitar's Number Ones Hot In The '60s (1998; sounds surprisingly nice on this disc)
Now, the mono mixes. (The first mono version to appear on CD was probably the original '80s-era release of the Atlantic R&B 1947-1974 set, which is not the one I have; I have the 1991 rerelease.)

Mono mix with the vocals way out in front

This turned up on Time-Life's Classic Rock Vol. 4 1968 (1987), but is from a really high-generation tape source and sounds really dreadful.

Infinitely better is the version on Rhino's Millennium New Soul Party (2000), which sounds truly stellar in comparison. I'm really surprised that this disc isn't a digital clone of the Stax/Volt box or Very Best Of, but there it is. Probably the only place on CD to find the vocals-out-in-front mix from really good source tapes.

Mono mix with the vocals mixed pretty low compared to the instrumentation

The first appearance on CD is on the 9-CD Complete Stax/Volt Vol. 1 Disc 9 (1991). There are some CDs that all use the same analog transfer as the Stax/Volt box:
  • Rhino's Very Best Of (1992; digitally identical)
  • Rhino's cheapie Soul Hits Vol. 2 (1993; digitally exactly 0.238 dB quieter)
  • Rhino's Billboard Top R&R Hits 1968 (1993; digitally identical)
  • Time-Life's Legends Of Soul Vol. 3 Otis Redding (2001)
I tried mono-ing out the stereo version, and it's closer to the vocals-far-out-in-front than the vocals-to-the-back.

For sound quality, go with the Rhino discs for the mono mixes. The stereo mixes aren't all that great on any of the CDs I listed above. I think the best of the bunch is probably Atlantic's Golden Age Of Black Music 1960-1970 (1988), which has a lot of hiss and the longest fade of the bunch. The hiss is probably indicative of a high-generation tape source, but I don't know of any discs that use a lower-generation tape source. (Are there any mid-'90s-era Rhino discs that feature the stereo version?)

Edited by crapfromthepast
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crapfromthepast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2013 at 8:34pm
Upon further listening, I think the vocals-way-out-in-front mono mix may be a fold-down of the stereo mix.

I'll be happy to send out test files to those interested in comparing...

Edited by crapfromthepast
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMathews Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2013 at 5:44pm
Ron,
That's what i was getting too, I can't really tell a
difference between the stereo-fold-down and the "vocals up
front" mono mix.
I'd be interested to hear the "vocals buried" mix.
MM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crapfromthepast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 5:45am
Thanks to John and Brian for sending me files, I can confirm:

The true 45 mix is the mono mix with the vocals way out in front. It's on:
  • Time-Life's Classic Rock Vol. 4 1968 (1987 - sounds awful; avoid)
  • Atlantic Rhythm And Blues 1947-1974 Volume 6 (Atlantic 81298 - original release of this set, not the 1991 rerelease; sounds quite nice)
  • Rhino's Millennium New Soul Party (2000; sounds superb)
John convinced me that if you fold down the stereo mix, the drums are much softer than on the mono vocals-out-in-front mix. So this isn't a fold-down.

Now to figure out where the vocals-to-the-back mix came from. It originally appeared on the Stax/Volt box in 1991, so Bill Inglot must have unearthed a tape of this mix buried in a vault somewhere. I suspect that this may be as much as we'll ever know...

Edited by crapfromthepast
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaronk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2013 at 6:43am
The mono mix on Rhino's 2-CD Definitive Soul Collection is also very nice sounding and is the correct mono mix.
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