Daryl Hall-"Dreamtime"
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Topic: Daryl Hall-"Dreamtime"
Posted By: jimct
Subject: Daryl Hall-"Dreamtime"
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 11:43pm
| Pat's book states the promo 45 lists times of (4:48) and (3:57), but both sides actually run (5:00). My promo 45 is not like this. My listed (4:48) side, shown as "Side A", does actually run (5:00)(Deadwax PB-14387-A), but my listed (3:57) side, shown as "Side 1" and specifying (Edited Version), actually runs (4:02). Deadwax PB-14387-C. |
Replies:
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 6:14am
| Wow here is yet another bizarre story from the world of dj promos. There really are two different pressings of this dj 45 as I have copies that state (3:57) but run (5:00) and another that states (3:57) and runs (4:02)! The matrix number on the one that runs (5:00) is PB-14387-C but there is an "A" superimposed over the "C". I have an extra copy of this mispressed dj 45 if you would like a copy Jim. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 6:43am
| Pat, I'd love your spare "dual 5:00" version promo 45. Thanks! Finally starting to go through your want list - I'm discovering that my "spares" aren't NEARLY as organized and categorized as my primary "library" copies, but I'm tryin' to track them down for you, Mr. Downey! |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 3:57pm
|
Jim & Pat:
Just for the record, in addition to correcting that mispressed dj 45, RCA went even one step further w/ "Dreamtime". Believe it or not, even though it was only the Summer of '86, the label also made a promo (dj) CD single for that one! It's definitely one of the first promo CD singles ever issued here in the U.S. (perhaps THE first??? - if anyone can cite an earlier example, I'd be curious), and I found one during my record-store travels a few years ago. (I'm a long-time H&O fan, and although "Dreamtime" was never one of my favorites, I bought it simply because I knew how old & rare it was for a promo CD single, and not so much because it contained the single version[s].) Unfortunately, it's buried away somewhere in my closet at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it includes both the (5:00) and (4:02) versions you guys describe above. Label & no. is RCA 14386-2-RDJ. (And if you're wondering where I got that from since I don't have the CD handy, it's actually documented in Gregory Cooper's now out-of-print 1998 catalog, "Collectible Compact Disc Price Guide 2", although I notice the "14386" catalog no. actually matches the vinyl promo 12" single, not the 45.) At any rate, the 10th edition of Pat's book indicates that only the (4:44) "LP length" version of "Dreamtime" has ever been issued on a commercial CD in the U.S., so that promo definitely includes a single version or two unavailable elsewhere on CD... |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 5:06pm
| I remember seeing that promo CD on Ebay last year and was quite surprised of its existence. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 6:07pm
| Thanks for the memory jogger, 80smusicfreak! I forgot I even HAD a 1986 promo CD singles section. I have THREE 1986 Top 40 BB hits on promo CD single. "Dreamtime" (CR-14386), was the SECOND of them to arrive, in August '86. It has just one version, with a listed run time (4:48), and an actual run time of (5:00). Our station had no use for the promo; we already knew a (4:02) version was included on the promo 45. We were unpleasantly surprised RCA didn't include that short version on the promo CD single. Perhaps Pat's "overwritten C to A" in the deadwax of his (5:00) on both sides promo 45 was an RCA attempt to make that (4:02) short promo 45 version disappear, and to "re-vitalize" their "newfangled service to radio", the promo CD single? Stranger things have happened. FYI: The EARLIEST Top 40 hit on a promo CD single that we ever received: 38 Special-"Like No Other Night" (CD 17378), in May '86. The 3rd and last 1986 Top 40 hit on a promo CD single? OMD-"(Forever) Live And Die" (CD 17422), in September. A&M put out promo CD singles #1 & #3; RCA #2, and all 3 contained just ONE version. We even actually received ONE PROMO cassette into the station! Any guesses? Actually, a few months LATER, in March of 1987, (the now, apparently cutting-edge) A&M records again, sent us a 45 AND cassette sealed "Radio-Take Your Pick" 2-pack for Bryan Adams "Heat Of The Night." What was A&M thinking? Cassettes for radio?? Oh, yeah, casettes make "carting up" music a snap!@#%&! I still have that sealed copy. Wonder what it would fetch on eBay??? |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 6:11pm
| I'm happier each day that I have become a member of this forum. That's one juicy post Jim, thanks! |
Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 7:27pm
| I have nothing to add here except that I think it's a fine song! I love it! |
Posted By: cmmmbase
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 8:32pm
| I Wonder how many promo CD singles there were that first year (1986)? I have the Police's remake of their own "Don't Stand So Close To Me" on a Promo CD single. Since it only made #46 (#35 sales), it obviously is outside the scope of this forum... |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:08am
|
Chuck, I have always loved that '86 version.
If interested, there is a 5.1 DTS mix of it on the "Every Breath You Take: The DVD" compilation (it was not included on the DTS CD versions of this release). What is the promo's track listing? |
Posted By: cmmmbase
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 11:46am
| the tracklisting for the promo CD of "Don't Stand So Close To Me '86" (A&M 17435) is simply the album version - listed at 4:48. |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 12:02pm
| Thanks, still a gem! |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 09 June 2006 at 11:15am
It definitely sounds like RCA was trying to bury that short (4:02) edit of "Dreamtime", but I doubt it had anything to do w/ the fact that they'd also decided to issue a promo CD single for it. You say your copy has the same catalog no., but w/ a "CR-" prefix instead of a "-2-RDJ" suffix, which may make it different from mine. That's because I could swear that mine matched the no. in Cooper's book - suffix and all - when I checked right after I found it. I just can't remember if mine has only the full (5:00) version (like yours) or both, as the book doesn't go so far as to give track listings and timings. Guess I may need to do some serious digging around my closet, lol...
Very cool - thanks for the info! Another quick check of Cooper's book shows all three other titles are listed there as well (counting the contribution from cmmmbase). Value for Mint copies of each back in 1998 (according to Cooper), was $15.00, $7.00, and $25.00 for those titles by 38 Special, O.M.D., and The Police, respectively, w/ Hall's fetching a mere $6.00. Cooper does state that 1986 was the first year that promo CD singles were issued here in the U.S., but doesn't specify what the very first title was. However, that being said, I know that 38 Special isn't any more collectible than DH, so the $15 value on that one (vs. only $6 for Hall) suggests to me you may have something. :-) I'm sure our list for 1986 is far from complete, too - I'd wager there were at least a dozen or two (regardless of eventual chart popularity), w/o trying to scan all 500+ pages of Cooper's book, and no doubt they hadn't all yet been documented by him nearly 10 years ago, anyway...
Believe it or not, your "March of 1987" clue was all I needed to guess that first promo cassette! May I again contribute to the history refresher here??? :-) I've admittedly never been in radio, but it sounds like somebody didn't read their station's copy of "Billboard" that week, lol. So to quote, "what was A&M thinking" when they sent you guys that promo for "Heat of the Night"??? Simple. By early '87, cassettes were by far the dominant music format, w/ over 70% of the album market in the U.S. (having passed the vinyl LP in market share back in '83, and CDs still a minor blip). At that time, the vinyl single was also sinking quickly, so the major labels knew that if it was to be saved, it was FINALLY time to move the single into the cassette era, but this time it had to be a unified effort, and w/ a big push. And yes, it was "Heat of the Night" that launched the golden age of the cassette single at retail - I still have that old issue of "Billboard" telling all about it, as I've been reading the magazine religiously since '83... :-) Obviously, A&M sent that cassette single (along w/ the 45) to radio stations as both an introduction and a reminder, and not so much w/ the thought that you guys would actually try to PLAY it, lol. If your "promo" cassette for "Heat of the Night" came in an unusual red plastic case w/ a rather plain black & white artist/title label pasted to the outside of it, it's identical to the commercial version that hit store shelves, as I have that one, too. :-) I'd estimate its value at about $5.00... Just as you appear to possess an extraordinary collection of promo 45s, I happen to own what I dare say is probably the most extensive collection of pre-1987 cassette singles and maxi-singles (both promo and commercial) - and knowledge of the cassette format in general. Now if you look in Joel Whitburn's "Top Pop Singles" book, you'll see he claims in Bryan Adams' entry under "Heat of the Night" that the song was "the first '45' also issued as a cassette single". Frankly, that always makes me laugh, because it's fa-a-ar from true. (Is Paul Haney reading???) In fact, the cassette single was first introduced in the U.S. in the late '60s, albeit for only a few select titles, and those are certainly mega-rare today. They began springing up again in the early '80s, when labels realized the cassette was about to overtake the vinyl LP in album sales, and thought that singles in tape form should again be tested as a viable alternative. However, those releases were only sporadic, and it wasn't until 1986 that the industry here decided to gather around the table and give them a very serious (and unified) push, but yes, it was the Adams tune that was selected to start the landslide in early '87... And indeed it worked - when the final numbers for singles sales for all of 1987 arrived in early '88, the cassette single actually BEAT the vinyl 45 that first year out (despite not being introduced till March of that year, as you correctly state when your Adams promo arrived), and never looked back. So yes, in a way, A&M truly WAS cutting-edge! But sadly, the majors saw those numbers and were so shocked at how quickly cassette singles had overtaken vinyl 45s, that they began that whole "singles sales must be cannibalizing album sales" BS. Thus, starting w/ Martika's "Toy Soldiers" in the Summer of '89, the majors began deleting select cassette singles from stores before the songs had even fallen off the pop chart, w/ the hopes that folks would shell out the extra $$$ for the entire album instead. That, in turn, eventually led to some huge airplay hits not even being released as commercial singles starting in early '91 (see Whitburn's "Pop Annual"). Of course, both of those practices ultimately stunted the single's comeback in the marketplace - and alas, some 15 years later, the physical single has become practically non-existent in the U.S., in any format (*sigh*)... This concludes today's lesson... :-) |
jimct wrote:Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 09 June 2006 at 11:43am
|
An extra long post from an 80's music freak...
I LOVED IT FROM START TO END! This gets more entertaining by the hour, thank you Pat and all members for this great forum : ) |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 09 June 2006 at 11:54am
| 80smusicfreak, your informative cassette thesis has now earned you the official title of "Dr. Cassette!" I didn't even know there WERE cassette collectors or cassette experts! When that's all I could buy for singles, I stopped buying! You're right, upon careful inspection. It was that "red cassette, stock 45, just FYI" on "Heat Of The Night." But forgive me for "not reading Billboard" that week - radio has always used "Radio & Records" as the "trade magazine of choice." And we get pretty busy at times. As for possibly "burying the Daryl Hall (4:02) version to pump up the promo CD single" (and I'll be anxious to see details on yours when it turns up, FYI,) I think our RCA rep at the time (John Boulos? - it gets blurry after a while) actually told ME that - it wasn't speculation - I have no use for rumor. I wouldn't have known something like that unless an RCA employee gave me that "insight" when I asked him why no short version appeared on the promo CD single (we would've played it off of that.) I promise you , FEW business operations are as INCREDIBLY political as record companies; someone, no doubt, stuck their neck out for that promo CD single, and wanted to keep it from getting "chopped off." Thank goodness my "timelines" passed muster, 80smusicfreak. I know, if you're wrong on this Board, they (rightfully) toss you into the meat grinder! Wonderful info - and thanks for it. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 09 June 2006 at 10:34pm
| I'd also like to add that the (4:02) version is not simply an edit of the LP or 45 version. There's a mix difference on the short promo version near the end of the song. |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 8:05am
Yes, I'm reading! Perhaps that note should be re-worded to "the first regularly issued cassette single" |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 11:37am
| Those are some fascinating posts, 80smusicfreak! So... don't keep us waiting. What WERE the few cassette singles that were released in the late '60s? |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 2:01pm
I always hated how very late the cd single format was introduced in the USA in both its promo and commercial forms. Mainly because it resulted in having no choice other than a 7" single for many of my dearest 80's remix edits : D I'm mostly resentful : p with Warner for not having released any of Madonna's singles from the "True Blue" album on CD, commercial or promo. That would only happen in 1989 with the "Like A Prayer" single (CD3 commercial, CD5 promo). Her recently inaugurated commercial CD single catalog would be interrupted for almost a year, since none of the following singles saw a commercial CD single release, until the last single off that album, "Keep It Together" did. 1) Now, which was the very first promo cd single by any artist Warner put out? If memory serves well I remember a promo CD for Fleetwood Mac's "Big Love", so could 1987 be Warner's inaugural year? Proud promo CD recipients from the heyday, step forward please! : D 2) Also, there is a strange detail on the back insert of two early Warner promo CD's I have. They both state 1988, but neither single was released that year: Electronic's "Getting Away With It" and Madonna's "Keep It Together" were both released in 1990, and while it can be argued that the latter was recorded in 1989 (the disc states this year), it still does not coincide wit the 1988 on the back inserts. Just a minor glitch, but thought I'd mention it. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 3:11pm
| I do show "Big Love" (PRO-CD-2710) being the earliest Hot 100 entry by WB on a promo CD single. But within the same family of labels, on Geffen, I have a (PRO-CD-2680) promo CD single for Peter Gabriel/Kate Bush's "Don't Give Up." I suppose it's possible that 30 stiff promo CD single releases could've been issued by WB & Co. (the #s between 2680 & 2710) during this time, but I cannot confirm anything in that regard. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 5:08pm
I couldn't help but chuckle at your post, Jim, because I actually did work for a small market radio station in the late '90s where we actually did cue up and play cassette singles from the early '90s on the air! Let me tell ya, those things were a pain to work with! |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 5:37pm
| Hope they included "hazardous duty", combat pay for your added "cassette expertise," Todd! Can't believe it! I've only heard of college radio using cassettes on-air. |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:55am
I'd also like more info on those late '60s cassette singles. Also, what were some of the pre-"Heat of The Night" '80s titles? Can we acutually pinpoint the very first ever commercial cassette single? |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 8:11am
I came across this interesting New York Times article called "Cassette Singles: New 45's". It was published in September 9, 1987. It does mention an 80's release that dates back to 1982, here are the paragraphs: "...In 1982, International Records Syndicate released the Go-Go's "Vacation" as a cassette single, with two songs appearing on both sides. "At that point, I think it was very well-received for something that people had never seen before,"" said Barbara Bolan, vice president of sales at the label. "But a total industry push, like what is happening now, makes a lot of difference." "Vacation" was marketed as a "cassingle", and International Record Syndicate trademarked the word. "We wanted everybody to use it"", Ms. Bolan said, "but there was resistance on the part of the other manufacturers because they would have to indicate that "cassingle" was a registered trademark of I.R.S. Records...."" Here's the complete article: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEED91531F 931A3575AC0A961948260&sec=&pagewanted=1 |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:46pm
Thanks, lol. Thought I might've gotten a bit long-winded there, but after seeing all the responses it got, maybe not... :-)
Let me say that I've certainly learned a lot from my (nearly) two years here as well. Like jimct, I admit I definitely don't have the ear to dissect the single version of a song down to the presence or absence of a single "whoosh" sound, heard only in one channel, and most likely noticeable only w/ headphones at that (as you guys recently did on another thread w/ Janet Jackson's "Nasty"), but I do like knowing which version of a song I'm getting on a CD before I buy it, which is a great part of what Pat's book and database provides. Personally, I've always had a preference for maxi-singles and/or LP versions (since they're usually - but yes, I realize not always - longer), but this site has definitely opened my eyes as to just how often single versions of songs were unique mixes, and not just early fades or chopped-up edits of the LP versions (as I previously thought). You folks here have definitely done a fantastic job of exposing these different single mixes as well as discovering some different commercial pressings of the same 45, and frankly, w/ the collectibility of vinyl, I'm surprised at how much of this has proven to be "uncharted territory", so to speak. So to that end, I say keep up the great work, everyone, and I also thank Pat for this forum! :-) |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 5:44pm
Thanks, Paul - sounds good, at least for starters. :-) But better yet, I'll bet Whitburn's many readers/music enthusiasts/single historians wouldn't mind a more detailed explanation in the "User's Guide" at the beginning of his book, stating much of the info I gave above (the folks here seemed pretty impressed, anyway)... :-) And while we're on the subject, it also begs one other nagging question I've always had about his singles books: If singles in cassette form were the dominant choice of U.S. consumers starting in 1987 (as in fact they were), why is it that Whitburn has always chosen 1990 as the starting point for acknowledging the cassette single as the "standard configuration"??? Now I agree that a case can certainly be made for continuing to use vinyl 45s as the standard for 1987, since the earliest singles from that year weren't released in cassette form, as well as some of the lower-charting ones through the remainder of the year. However, the same can't be said for the years 1988 and '89. Right now, thanks to Whitburn's books, it wouldn't surprise me if most folks (including those here before they read my post) actually think it wasn't until 1990 that cassette singles passed vinyl 45s in popularity. So will we ever see a change there, just to keep history accurate??? |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:35pm
Well, please bear in mind that this is definitely uncharted territory! In fact, to this day, I've found NO lists, catalogs, old magazine articles, or any other form of written documentation stating what titles were issued on cassette single that far back - even "Schwann" didn't start listing ALBUM-length cassettes and 8-tracks in their catalogs until '71 (and even then, they always contained numerous omissions in the two tape formats!). So basically, that means I can only go by what I and a small circle of fellow cassette collectors have stumbled across while out on our record-store travels over the last 15-20 years, and more recently, on eBay (although I don't regularly search for them there). The cassette was introduced in the U.S. in late '66/early '67, so it's also worth keeping in mind that they made up only about 5% of the album market in those early years (trailing both vinyl LPs and 8-tracks, not to mention competition from other less-popular formats, including 4-tracks and reel-to-reels - ah, the CHOICES back then!). Translation: Cassettes of that vintage are rare enough in album-length form, so you can imagine how rare that would make any cassette singles! At any rate, the oldest cassette single I've ever seen was for "Soul Finger" by the Bar-Kays, from the Summer of '67. And unfortunately, by the time I found it around 1990, it had at some point in time become separated from its original case and/or inserts - in other words, it was just the tape itself. Shortly thereafter, I traded it to a fellow cassette collector who was also a die-hard Bar-Kays fan. I still occasionally keep in touch w/ him, though, and I believe he still has it... There were also many cassette-only EPs released back in the late '60s (w/ no vinyl equivalent, although from the ones I've seen, the material on those EPs was available on full-length vinyl LPs), and they seem to have been a bit more common, relatively speaking... Well, that's it for tonight - I'll try to respond to the rest of the posts in this thread in the coming days... |
Posted By: torcan
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 6:41am
I think it's because he used the standard configuration that Billboard itself used. It wasn't until around mid-1990 that Billboard recognized the cassette single as its standard configuration on the Hot 100. There were so many hits available only on cassette and CD (and not on vinyl) at that time it's almost like they had no choice. What I don't like about Whitburn's books is that from 1990-98 they only indicate cassette single availability - there was a lot released on CD single back then but it's not indicated in his books. |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 12:48pm
The explanation for that is really quite simple: As I noted earlier, by 1986, the cassette was king here in the U.S., and while the tape format had been #1 in album sales for over three years at that point, it had seen only some half-hearted attempts at supplementing/replacing vinyl in singles form. For whatever reason, during the early to mid '80s, there was a fairly strong mentality among the old folks in suits at the majors (as well as, ahem, radio dj's) that the buying public couldn't or wouldn't accept singles in any other form but vinyl (including CD - not just cassette). So as the gap between album-length cassettes and vinyl LPs continued to widen by '86, since CD sales were still just a minor blip, the natural progression was to get behind the cassette as a singles successor... And as I said before, the cassette single more than succeeded that first year out (1987), even outselling vinyl 45s - something that most of the suits hadn't expected. (And part of that may have also had something to do w/ giving consumers more for their money: Almost all cassette singles came w/ picture sleeves/boxes - unlike their vinyl 45 rpm counterparts - as well as repeating the A- and B-sides on both sides, again, unlike vinyl 45s.) If anything, it just proved that the universal support of the cassette single came along way too late - by some five to six years, in fact! Point being, now that another format besides vinyl had proven successful in singles form, and w/ album-length CD sales still rising, the labels were much quicker to get behind the silver discs in both promo and commercial form, starting in 1988. But w/ cassettes garnering over 80% of the singles market by the end of '89, the number of releases on commercial CD single and maxi-single would remain just a trickle until the early '90s. (Fact: Even album-length CDs didn't pass cassettes here in the U.S. until 1992!) Of course, also hindering their mass introduction in CD form was the retail price: "Okay, we now know that the buying public will accept singles in a non-vinyl format, but are they also willing to pay extra at the cash register if we put them on these shiny new indestructible 5" discs that will last them a lifetime, not to mention they'll cost us more to manufacture???"
Or if you're talking post-"Heat of the Night", cassette... ;-)
"Big Love" is indeed listed in Cooper's book as well, and as jimct's interesting collection proves, yes, 1987 was apparently when WEA jumped onboard... |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 1:59pm
Well, believe it or not, many of the ones I've found were for songs that MISSED the top 40, so I suppose that would be going beyond the scope of this forum - not only that, but some were r&b hits that failed to cross over to the "Hot 100" altogether. And I suppose I should also point out that the vast majority were actually MAXI-singles (i.e., 12" vinyl equivalent) as opposed to regular singles... But that 1982 "cassingle" (I've always hated that term, BTW) for "Vacation" by the Go-Go's - which of course WAS a top 40 hit - mentioned in the 1987 "New York Times" article that elcoleccionista uncovered is definitely one of the easiest to find, relatively speaking. (I own two or three copies, and have run across a total of about six or seven in the last 15-20 years.) Like its vinyl 45 counterpart, it was b/w "Beatnik Beach", and I believe the picture sleeve is also the same. Came in a hard plastic case w/ an inlay card (unlike the cardboard sleeves that were introduced on most cassette singles in '87). Oh, and who distributed the I.R.S. label back in '82??? Yep, A&M... :-)
W/ so few from the late '60s left in existence, and not that many cassette collectors, I seriously doubt it. :-( However, I'm always interested in finding out about more, and will continue to grab any and all pre-"Heat of the Night" cassette singles that I run across during my travels (assuming I don't have them already, and regardless of chart success)... :-) |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 3:20pm
Yes, that's true, as I do remember that. But like me, so many other people here in this forum seem to feel that whichever format was the dominant one during the year in question should define the "standard" single release. And as we've already discovered from several examples (whether it's vinyl 45 vs. cassette single or cassette single vs. CD single), record labels didn't always use the same mix/edit/version of a song on their singles, when released in multiple formats at the same time. So although I don't own a lot of cassette singles from 1987-89, it wouldn't surprise me if quite a few of them had versions of their hits that were different from their vinyl 45 counterparts. Yet Whitburn - and consequently, folks here, including Pat in his database - are treating the vinyl versions from those three years as the "standard", when they shouldn't. But hopefully, Paul will chime in on Whitburn's stance... :-)
Yes, but "Billboard" waited WAY too long, IMHO...
True, but thankfully I've held onto all of my old issues of "Billboard" (even if they are in storage right now), and thus can refer back to the format-availability indicators on their charts from that period, if necessary... And while I'm on the subject, a note to edtop40 in particular, since he's brought this up in the past on other threads: While the format-indicators on the magazine's charts were great, they didn't always get it right 100% of the time. There were several occasions where I noticed a particular single WAS available in a certain format, and not indicated as such on their charts! Case in point: I remember when Us3's top 40 hit, "Cantaloop", was riding up the charts in 1993-94, "Billboard" never indicated it was available here in the U.S. as a cassette maxi-single when, in fact, it WAS - so the availability symbols can't be treated as gospel, only a guide... And on another note, since you're from the Great White North, torcan, I'd like to point out that Canada also got into the cassette singles game prior to 1987, and "Heat of the Night". One of the easiest to find up there is the cassette maxi-single for the Pet Shop Boys' top 40 hit from 1986, "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)". And to the best of my knowledge, it didn't come out in the U.S. in cassette form (regular or maxi-), so it's a nice addition to my collection, as that song has always been a favorite of mine... :-) |
Posted By: torcan
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 6:26am
I did too - and they take up a LOT of room. I'd eventually like to see Whitburn indicate which were CD singles back then. He does a good job on the vinyl releases, which would be nice if he extended to his album book as a lot of albums have been on vinyl since 1990 as well!
That was especially true with the (v) symbols for 45s. They actually erred both ways over time. There were some songs from the early '90s in which a (v) was indicated, but one was never released. I wonder if the record company reported they'd release it on vinyl and then changed their mind(?) There were also numerous times where a (v) wasn't listed, but one WAS available. For that matter, it drove me crazy which songs got vinyl releases and which ones didn't. It made no sense whatsoever and wasn't consistent from release to release. Some examples, most of the time they'd do a vinyl version if the song became a hit - but there were many occasions where you could find a vinyl version on a non-hit, but a big Top 10 wouldn't be available :(
Yes, I remember when that was out and didn't think much of it at the time - I've never been a fan of that format. I think I own about 7 of them only because there was no vinyl or CD version available. Canada continued to release vinyl 45s until about spring 1990 - after that they were few and far between (although the 12-inch singles and vinyl albums continued to be pressed here for quite a while). We had cassette singles for a while but they didn't really catch on, and then a push towards CD singles. For a few years we had $3.99 CD singles that weren't released on that format in the States, but now that things have moved more to downloads they've all but disappeared. Some exceptions include the "American Idol" and "Canadian Idol" winners, who always get single releases because their albums are always several months after the competition. |
Posted By: NightAire
Date Posted: 28 February 2010 at 8:56pm
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Searching eBay for the DJ promo CD single with the short edit on it, I came across this Mexican promo 45 that claims to have a run time of 3:30!
http://cgi.ebay.com/DARYL-HALL-DREAMTIME-MEXICAN-PROMO-SINGLE-7_W0QQitemZ160242668666QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMusic_on_Vinyl?hash=item254f35147a - DARYL HALL - DREAMTIME - MEXICAN PROMO SINGLE 7" 
I realize if this actually is a 3 & 1/2 minute edit, it's outside of the scope of the database... still, I'd be very curious if anybody has ever come across this short of an edit. (Tips for finding the CD single on eBay would be greatly appreciated, too... I found one CD single, & it only had the album length on it! {perhaps a bootleg?}) ------------- Gene Savage http://www.BlackLightRadio.com - http://www.BlackLightRadio.com http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage - http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage Tulsa, Oklahoma USA |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 28 February 2010 at 9:03pm
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IIRC, my CD single has the (short) album length listed, but is actually the (long) single length. I'd have to double check that.
So the one you found on ebay may have very well been exactly what you were looking for. I don't think I've ever seen a CD single that was actually the short album length. |
Posted By: NightAire
Date Posted: 28 February 2010 at 11:12pm
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Now that you mention it, EdisonLite, reading back through this thread it looks like the 4:02 edit / mix has never made it to CD. FRUSTRATING!
I did find a sealed UK pressing which allegedly includes the 5:00 version on one side, and Let It Out and the 4:02 version of Dreamtime on the other. They want $18 for it. Now I just have to decide how warped I think a record shrink-wrapped for 24 years would be. :) ------------- Gene Savage http://www.BlackLightRadio.com - http://www.BlackLightRadio.com http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage - http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage Tulsa, Oklahoma USA |
Posted By: bwolfe
Date Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:17am
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Whatever you call them the cassette single was one of the worst formats of all time.
Many were done on poor quality tape and felt like throwaways. All tape breaks down through time no matter how carefully you store it. The industry could have saved the single, before downloads, if they would have done a CD single early enough. ------------- the way it was heard on the radio |
Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:48am
Ah, but the industry wasn't one bit interested in saving the single. To the contrary, they appeared to do everything possible to kill it. They just couldn't resist the higher margins entailed by forcing consumers to buy an entire CD and consequently phased out singles in any format as a mass market item. And the strategy worked for about a decade (roughly 1989-1999). Of course, when file-sharing came onto the scene, everything changed and consumers got their revenge. While I believe file-sharing was inevitable, it may not have become such an industry-killing force had the labels been offering economically priced CD singles. I can't remember how much CD3 singles retailed for in the late 80s, but I do remember CD5 singles having unreasonable price tags ($5). |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:50am
I'm in complete agreement with you on cassette singles. El-cheapo cassettes, poor sound quality and a general PITA to use. Frankly, it baffles me that they were the "preferred" format from '87 on. BTW, I have a couple dozen just sitting in a box that have been dubbed to digital media if anyone wants them.
I'm not sure that CD3 (or CD singles in general) was the answer either. for one thing they were not issued for very many songs nor were the ones that existed easy to find, and secondly a lot of CD players at the time wouldn't play them. I never saw enough of them to get an idea of price. While I agree with Roscoe's comments about the music industry wanting to kill singles, but that goes back to the 70s at least. Singles have pretty much always been a loss leader for the labels. Consumer preferences also greatly contributed to the demise of singles. Let's face it, for non music geeks, singles were a PITA. Much easier to just let an album (in whatever format) play thru. MP3s (and downloadable music files in general) showed there was a demand for single songs as long as they were convenient to play (audio quality of 128k mp3s notwithstanding)...first with Napster and other peer-to-peer networks and finally with legitimate downloads. I'm of the opinion that singles died off to a great degree because to most music fans, they really weren't very convenient or portable. |
Posted By: bwolfe
Date Posted: 03 March 2010 at 2:21pm
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I've been reading some terrific responses to what I said a few days ago. I didn't realize that the single's demise goes as far back as the 70s.
I forgot about the 5 dollar price tag for a CD3. Working in radio for that past 25 years I've seen so much change, but I feel that the industry was slow to respond to technology. They could have found ways to make money through technology. I know that you can't stop people from sharing and stealing music on the web, but there could have been a window of opportunity for the labels. That being said I'm not naive enough to think that it would always stay the same. I was there when there was endless service, concert tix and product giveaways. Maybe too many product giveaways. I miss those days... ------------- the way it was heard on the radio |
Posted By: NightAire
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 12:20am
Does this mean that even having the 5:01 DJ copy (thank you, you know how you are) won't allow you to create the short DJ edit, or are you simply saying the short DJ edit can't be made from the album version? ------------- Gene Savage http://www.BlackLightRadio.com - http://www.BlackLightRadio.com http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage - http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage Tulsa, Oklahoma USA |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 10:23am
Both. The short promo has unique audio on the ending. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 9:52pm
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Does anyone know if the 12" mix of "Dreamtime" has been released on CD anywhere?
(It amazes me how many 12" mixes of '80s singles exist, and how many I didn't know about! For instance, tonight I saw an upcoming 5-CD Bee Gees box set that has the extended mix of "You Win Again". That's one of my favorites from the '80s, and I didn't even know there WAS an extended version until tonight. I wonder how many other extended mixes of '80s hits I don't even know about.) |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 25 February 2014 at 7:42am
I've always been pretty well aware of the number of '80s hits that have extended 12" versions (even "rock" songs - not just dance or r&b hits); the problem for me has always been finding them on cassette (in the '80s & '90s) and/or CD (2000s), since I've never been a huge fan of vinyl. And while I don't have a ton of them, I probably own just as many vinyl 12" singles as I do LPs, just because I know I can't get those mixes in either of the other two formats... And to make matters worse, over the years I've noticed that U.S. record labels have been much more reluctant to release 12" versions on CD vs. their overseas counterparts, so in many cases, if I can find the 12" version of a favorite song on CD, I have to settle for a more-costly import, not to mention the added shipping! So alas, I, too, still have a huge laundry list of 12" versions that I'd love to eventually get on CD. But that's cool about the 12" version of "You Win Again" finally making it onto CD (didn't know about it till I read your post). I actually ran out & bought the song's original parent album, E-S-P, on cassette after hearing that song just once or twice back in late '87, when it was still considered very UNCOOL to be a Bee Gees fan! Your post just made me look up the 12" version on YouTube, and sure enough, it was there - I don't think I'd ever heard it before. For me, anyway, it was great to know that the trio was back at the time, and I was very curious to hear how they'd updated their "sound" for the late '80s. I wasn't disappointed - in fact, I actually liked the title track (which was the second single) even better! Original 1987 video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsJwIpM1o3s - Bee Gees - "E-S-P" But sadly, the Bee Gees "backlash" was still in force, and the song failed to chart at all here in the U.S., despite my hopes each week when I opened up my latest issue of Billboard that I'd just bought fresh off the newsstand... :-( Anyway, this doesn't answer your question, but since you brought up Daryl Hall & 12" versions, it was only just a few months ago that I discovered that Hall & Oates actually made a production video for the (5:44) 12" "rock mix" of their 1983 hit, "Family Man", which has always been one of my top three songs of theirs! (The song was actually co-written and originally recorded by Mike Oldfield in 1982, BTW.) I'd always known there was an extended 12" version of the song (and it's even available on several U.S. CDs), but all these years, and I'd only seen & known of the video for the (3:24) 45/LP version, as originally shown on MTV, VH-1, etc. - which it turns out is an edited version of the full-length video made for the 12" "rock mix". I stumbled across it on YouTube just by accident, and when I realized it wasn't just some homemade video that a fan had thrown together for this extended version, my jaw dropped, lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKvJ7bvNxfY - Hall & Oates - "Family Man" (original 12" "rock mix" video) So the 12" versions of a few hits from the '80s even got some love in video form. :-) (Oh, and congrats to H&O for FINALLY making it into the R'n'R HoF this year!) |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 28 February 2014 at 7:46pm
wish I could help you with the 12" mix of "Dreamtime" but I've never seen it on CD. However, the LP length version does actually appear on a budget release from 2013. This ten track compilation is titled The 80s Hall & Oates (bar code info is 88883778172) and is on the Sony Music label. I found it at Best Buy this week along with several others that are a part of this US budget series. Some of the others I recall are discs for the Outlaws, Van Morrison, Cheap Trick, Ted Nugent, Blue Oyster Cult, Men At Work, Bob Dylan, Elvis Presley, Dean Martin, Pure Prairie League and Gary Puckett & The Union Gap. Each disc is just ten tracks and every song is from the same decade. So for example: Bob Dylan had two different discs, one for the 60s and a second disc for the 70s. Same for Elvis. The Cheap Trick disc I saw was just 70s songs. If there is an 80s disc for this artist I didn't see it, but it may exist. I only purchased the Hall & Oates disc since I noticed this must be the first time ever Daryl's solo hit appears on a CD hits compilation for the duo (BTW, there is nothing new on this disc when it comes to versions and or edits that have yet to appear on a domestic CD release). ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 9:12am
| I have the album version of "Dreamtime" on CD from the parent album ("Three Hearts..."), which incidentally is the shortest version of the song. I also have the longer, single length version on CD single - and the 12" on cleaned vinyl (but only mp3 format, not WAV ... or even vinyl, for that matter). |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 7:45pm
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As far as commercially released versions, you're right, Gordon. But the US promo 45 has the shortest version, running about 4:00. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 03 March 2014 at 12:25pm
| oh ok, Aaron. I only have the commercial 45, which has the longer single length. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 11:14pm
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Turns out the 12" extended remix of "Dreamtime", which clocks in at 7:55 HAS made its way to CD. Three years ago, the Japanese reissue of Daryl's "Three Hearts ..." CD included 3 bonus cuts, including this one. So I just ordered it. (Luckily, it's still in print - and it was even a decent price for a Japanese import.)
Thanks to my Sony contact for bringing this release to my attention. Otherwise, I don't think I ever would have known about it. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 23 March 2014 at 12:27pm
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The 12-inch version is also available on this download-only foreign compilation from Sony, which is available in lossless format on the French website Qobuz (need to go through a proxy server to get it):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/80s-100-Remixes-Various/dp/B00IL5Y49O - http://www.amazon.co.uk/80s-100-Remixes-Various/dp/B00IL5Y49 O |
Posted By: Fetta
Date Posted: 11 January 2016 at 6:18pm
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There is no mention of the Promo CD single in the Database so here is some info:
CR-14386 1. 4:48 (no mix designated) (listed 4:48; actual 5:02) |
Posted By: Gem80s
Date Posted: 12 January 2020 at 5:08am
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There is a 4:06 version of Dreamtime on this cd which
Almost matches the promo 45 version. https://www.discogs.com/Various-Raised-On-Rock-80s-Rock- US/release/10134866 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 January 2020 at 9:55am
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Have you compared it to the promo 45, and if so, what’s different? ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Gem80s
Date Posted: 12 January 2020 at 2:05pm
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The version on this cd is the 4:02 version.
It also appears on this cd https://www.discogs.com/Various-Burning-Heart- 2/release/6229935 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 13 January 2020 at 11:08am
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Thanks again for the tip. I went ahead and ordered the Raised On Rock CD. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Gem80s
Date Posted: 14 January 2020 at 2:55am
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No problems Aaron.
It's good that this version is on a few cds. |
Posted By: promojunkie
Date Posted: 10 July 2021 at 3:03pm
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Wow, this is a long thread! I have an mp3 file of the
4:02 version that was sent to me a long time ago. Someone mentioned in the thread that that the promo cd clocking in at 5:00 (which I have and used to create the short version) can't be edited down to the 45 length due to unique mix at the end. Does anyone have a dub of the promo 45 mix the can send so I can compare and see if what I have is authentic or not? Much appreciated. ------------- Rick |
Posted By: davidlg1971
Date Posted: 05 September 2021 at 1:40am
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Hey Rick, sent you a PM. And yes, the 5:02 version cannot be edited down to the 4:03 7" Version - the 4:03 edit has unique vocals over its last 20-30 seconds.
Whereas the 5:02 version could be edited down to the 4:44 LP version - the LP version is essentially an early fade of the 5:02. |
Posted By: davidlg1971
Date Posted: 05 September 2021 at 2:39am
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Dreamtime is one of my very favorite Daryl Hall songs. Below is a list of the unique versions, with CD sources where available:
4:44 - LP version From the 1986 https://www.discogs.com/Daryl-Hall-Three-Hearts-In-The-Happy-Ending-Machine/release/1828604 - Three Hearts in the Happy Ending Machine CD - RCA PCD1-7196. 5:02 - Single Version (and video version) The same mix as the LP version but faded 18 seconds later. It’s mostly instrumental for those additional 18 seconds, punctuated by Daryl's periodic vocalizations. To my knowledge it's only available on CD via the https://www.discogs.com/Daryl-Hall-Dreamtime/release/4431687 - Dreamtime promo CD-Single - RCA CR-14386. 4:03 - 7” Version / Edited Version Usually listed as 3:57 but times out to 4:03, sometimes 4:04. The mix is similar to the LP version until 3:35, where an edit allows the song to skip past the string section breakdown. From there it features unique lead vocals not found on the LP/Single versions. It’s available on the import https://www.discogs.com/Various-Burning-Heart-2/release/6229935 - Burning Heart 2 compilation (Insight 553 855-2), though that may be a vinyl dub. 7:55 - Extended Remixed Version It's on the https://www.discogs.com/Daryl-Hall-Three-Hearts-In-The-Happy-Ending-Machine/release/3409142 - 2011 Three Hearts Japan mini-LP - RCA SICP-20338; may be a vinyl rip. There's also a 7:07 edit of this remix on the https://www.discogs.com/Daryl-Hall-I-Wasnt-Born-Yesterday/release/1390000 - I Wasn't Born Yesterday UK 12" - Hall T2. 7:49 - Dub Version Unavailable on CD as of 2021. 4:44 - Instrumental Version Found on the https://www.discogs.com/Daryl-Hall-Dreamtime/release/2222881 - Dreamtime UK 12" - RCA Hall T1 R. For the most part it’s the LP version sans vocals - until 3:35. At that point the LP version begins breaking down into the strings+harpsichord section, before building back up. The instrumental keeps the full band sound throughout. Not available on CD. |
Posted By: Kiefer2
Date Posted: 10 September 2021 at 9:41am
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So the 7"/Edited version is NOT on this one?
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Raised-On-Rock-80s-Rock- US/release/10134866 |
Posted By: thecdguy
Date Posted: 10 September 2021 at 10:35am
It could be. If it's 4:06 like it says on Discogs, the extra few seconds could be just blank space at the end of the track. ------------- Dan In Philly |
Posted By: davidlg1971
Date Posted: 15 September 2021 at 4:40am
On Burning Heart 2, it's listed with a duration of 4:04, and times out a bit over 4:03. As Dan suggested, add 1-2 seconds of silence and Bob's your uncle. But perhaps somebody who has the Raised On Rock CD can confirm. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 23 September 2021 at 8:30am
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I have Raised On Rock-80's Rock U.S., and it also times out to just a tad under 4:04. I'm 99% sure this is the promo single version, but I haven't A/B'd them. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 23 October 2021 at 9:28pm
I have the Japanese CD - I bought it for this edit - and it sounded like master tape to me. Are you saying it may be a vinyl rip because you heard this and you're questioning whether a tape source was used? I usually notice vinyl rips right away, and if that's the case here, it must have been really well cleaned, because I didn't notice. |
Posted By: davidlg1971
Date Posted: 27 October 2021 at 8:18pm
Anyway - I never doubted the sound quality of the audio myself, but there were Amazon reviews where people complained the bonus tracks were vinyl rips, so I thought to mention it as a possibility. I'm curious to revisit the disc to see, as I haven't heard those masters in awhile. The one Japanese Mini-LP CD I can personally verify includes vinyl rips as bonus tracks is Mr. Mister's Welcome To The Real World. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 14 December 2021 at 5:11am
| I just listened to the extended mix of "Dreamtime" on my Japanese Mini-LP CD release, where it's included as a bonus cut. If it's a vinyl transfer they did an amazing job. I listened all the way through and then cranked up the fade. In the last 1 second, with the volume cranked way up, I MAY be hearing something that's vinyl, but I can't really tell, and everything before that last one second sounds like tape to me. Does anyone else have this import CD, and can they tell if vinyl was used for this song? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 December 2021 at 7:20am
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The "Dreamtime" and "Foolish Pride" 12" mixes are tape sources for sure. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 02 August 2024 at 9:25am
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A "Dreamtime" EP was released as a digital download today from RCA/Sony. The track listing is:
1. Dreamtime - Extended Album Version (5:02) 2. Dreamtime - Extended Remix Version (7:52) 3. Dreamtime - Dub Version (7:46) 4. Let It Out - Extended Album Version (3:49) https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dreamtime-daryl-hall/lu1zni2ohz3zb?_gl=1*17ygjny*_up*MQ..*_ga*NTE1MjE0MDc3LjE3MjI2MTU4NDk.*_ga_BCS72N6MDF*MTcyMjYxNTg0OS4xLjEuMTcyMjYxNTg1NC4wLjAuOTQ1ODU0OTcz - Dreamtime EP |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 02 August 2024 at 3:49pm
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FYI:
The digital "Extended Remix Version" is a differently-EQ'd digital clone of the "Dance Mix" from the 2011 Japanese reissue of Three Hearts In The Happy Ending Machine. The fade is about 2 beats shorter than the Japanese CD. The digital "Extended Album Version" is the 45 version, and is a differently-EQ'd digital clone (with a tiny amount of added compression/limiting) of the only track on the promo CD single (RCA CR-14386). The fade is exactly the same length for both. Great to see that these versions are now readily available! ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: music4life75
Date Posted: 06 August 2024 at 10:06pm
| The EP is also available on Spotify! 😀👍 |