"Every 1’s a Winner" - Hot Chocolate
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Topic: "Every 1’s a Winner" - Hot Chocolate
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Subject: "Every 1’s a Winner" - Hot Chocolate
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 7:46am
| Does anyone know if the complete and unabridged LP version of Hot Chocolate's "Every 1's a Winner" has ever appeared anywhere on CD? I believe it runs 4:49 and is the same version that was issued on the B-side of DJ 45 copies. According to the database, the LP version is edited down to a run time of between 3:54 and 4:00 on all domestic CD appearances. Anyone have any inside knowledge or theories as to why this is? |
Replies:
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 10:41am
| Todd: My best guess here is that this song was a "left field, late-in-their-chart-career" hit by the group. They actually started in the U.S. on Apple ("Give Peace A Chance"), and had the original UK hit of "Brother Louie" (with MUCH cruder lyrics), that Stories tamed down a lot for the U.S. hit. The U.S. label for "Every 1's..." (Infinity) went bankrupt only about a year after it opened. MCA inherited their catalog. When Rhino came calling for its "Have A Nice Day" inclusion, (its first CD appearance, I believe) they probably asked MCA for the 45 version, and it appears were lucky to get a competant person to handle that request. Rhino probably had a "go-to" guy inside MCA, since they were a "steady" customer. Then, years go by. When Hot Chocolate "Hits" packages then ask for it, the then-MCA junior engineers (who get stuck with these requests) probably assumed it hadn't ever been digitized before, and, as usual, took the quick, easy way out by chopping the first version they could find, and tried to simulate the 45, thinking no one would notice. They wouldn't believe the LP version would have any value here. Who ever bought Hot Chocolate LPs? Todd, probably the same old story we've seen time and again. But, MCA tape library records are probably more confusing in this case, since MCA "proper" wasn't the recording's "originator". It requires time and effort to sort out a "foreign" catalog, and often we don't get it. Similar case: Have we ever seen the 45v for "Poetry Man" on CD? No. First out on Shelter; ownership inherited by MCA - they appear to have NO clue - the LP version is on ALL CDs. But Todd, ultimately, your guess is as good as mine. |
Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 10:52am
OTOH, MCA seemed pretty good about getting two edits and an LP version of "Radar Love" by Golden Earring...
Well, Rhino had Bill Inglot, who either inssted on getting the right tapes, or was allowed by that time to go in himself. In the case of Hot Chocolate, e could have gotten the tapes from England. Usually, if one has the catalog number, they can pull the right tape out of the vault, if the vault is in good shape. |
When Rhino came calling for its "Have A Nice Day" inclusion, (its first CD appearance, I believe) they probably asked MCA for the 45 version, and it appears were lucky to get a competant person to handle that request. Rhino probably had a "go-to" guy inside MCA, since they were a "steady" customer.Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 2:43pm
This was a great song from my youth, and was the tune that made me a Hot Chocolate fan. :-) I don't know why the "LP version" has been butchered on all U.S. CD appearances to date, but I've always found that a bit frustrating as well, as I prefer it over the shorter "45 version". (Luckily, I still have my original cassette of the album, though.) However, the group was much more successful in their native U.K., and consequently, there have been at least a dozen hits collections released on HC there over the years, several of which I have on cassette, so that would be your best bet. Unfortunately, the only import CD I have at this time is 1996's "14 Greatest Hits" on EMI 53599, which covers only their early years from 1970-76, so it doesn't include "Every 1's a Winner" - I know, not much help there... :-( However, in the event you're seeking the full "LP version" because you really like the song and simply want more of it (which admittedly strikes me as odd, as I know you prefer single versions/mixes, and the 45 version is available on several U.S. CDs), then the one you want is the 12" version! I don't own a whole lot of vinyl, but the commercial U.S. 12" single for "Every 1's a Winner" on Infinity 16000 happens to be one of the few pieces in my collection (if about a hundred is "a few"). :-) The label lists a timing of (7:17), but it actually clocks in at (7:05), as it was one of the first pieces I put on CD-R. I can do the same for you, if you wish... |
Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 4:10pm
Going to re-arrange this a bit...
I realize you were speaking from the label's perspective, but I certainly did! It took me several years, but I was able to track down all of HC's U.S. album releases on cassette (much rarer than the LP versions), in addition to obtaining several import hits collections from the '80s and '90s. Although they did manage eight chart hits here in the U.S., including three that cracked the top 10 (and two of them certified gold), to this day it still amazes me that they weren't bigger here on this side of the big pond - just as many others say the same about another huge '70s act, ABBA (oh, and Cliff Richard, anyone???). After getting hooked by "Every 1's a Winner", I eventually picked up the rest of their back catalog by the late '80s, and wasn't disappointed. Although they were both released as singles here in the States as well, why their original version of "Brother Louie" wasn't a hit is a crime; same w/ the ultra-funky "Heaven is in the Back Seat of My Cadillac" (which didn't even make the r&b chart!)...
True. That's the one American release of theirs I've yet to obtain, since it never appeared on any of their albums - but I've always wanted to hear it. Hopefully it'll turn up on CD someday, along w/ the B-side ("Living Without Tomorrow"), assuming it hasn't already been made available on an import (never researched it, actually)...
Sad, but again, true. However, it was long enough for HC to actually release a SECOND album on the label, 1979's "Going Through the Motions"...
Wasn't MCA the label's distributor??? I know Infinity used the same catalog-numbering code and pressing plants as MCA, anyway. And most of the Infinity albums are still pretty easy to find to this day, including the two by HC...
Actually, I feel that's a bit of a stretch. HC's original included two spoken-word interludes: One toward the beginning where "Louie" meets and speaks w/ the black girl's father, and later in the song, when the black girl meets and speaks w/ "Louie's" white father. Those interludes - which included the expressions "honky" and "spook" - were what was cut when Stories later recorded the song (otherwise, their cover was faithful). I could see how the terms "honky" and "spook" might've been a bit questionable by 1973 standards, but certainly not today... Incidentally, back in the late '90s, I had the pleasure of meeting Ian Lloyd (lead singer of Stories) and seeing him perform "Brother Louie" live. He continues to record off and on, and his more recent material is highly recommended... |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 9:02pm
| I have always considered myself a big fan of the band "Hot Chocolate." "Emma" is a personal all-time favorite. I do have several of their LPs - as you correctly noted, my comment was more from an economic/big picture/label perspective, rather than my personal opinion. If you listen to the impassioned WAY Hot Chocolate's original version of "Brother Louie" has the "father" deliver that "spook" line to his "daughter", I give it NO chance to be a US hit that way in 1973. Tame by today's standards, I agree. But I don't feel it to be a stretch, and I stand by my "much cruder" assessment, compared to Stories' version. PM me if you would like a vinyl dub of their rare, long-forgotten 45 of "Give Peace A Chance/Living Without Tomorrow", as by the "Hot Chocolate Band." Yes, MCA was Infinity's original distributor, but this often results in the parent label becoming the subsidiary's biggest "creditor", as well. Restitution often results in the parent gaining "custody" of hit recordings. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 11:50pm
What's so odd about it? Yes, I do happen to really like the song but I also like to collect LP versions as well. The reason I seldom mention LP versions on this board is because 98% of the time they are readily available on CD, whereas 45 versions are so often not. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 12:54am
| My commercial 45 has both a listed & actual time of (3:35). I only post this info becuase all 9 of the current database CDs which have a "45 version" notation stated next to it all have run times of exactly (3:39). |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:07am
| It's been a while since I did comparisons on this one, but I believe the Rhino Have A Nice Day version has an :04 later fade than the actual 45. I'd have to go back and check this to be sure. I have managed to re-insert the missing LP audio seemlessly into the 45 version on CD, and the end result is quite nice! |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:52am
| Once again, "Super Audio Sleuth" Aaron K is all over it! Thanks for your clarification, sir. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 9:31am
Sony owns the Phoebe Snow catalog. Well, Bill Inglot, then, of Rhino, sometimes had authorization to enter record companies vaults to pull the correct tapes. I always wondered how the wrong edits of songs appear on CDs. I assumed the producer ordered an edit to appriximate a single version. Bill Inglot has stated that he has done this quite frequently in order to use a source with better sound, or if the 45 master was damaged. The problem with recreating 45 edits is that, if there is no 45 to use for a guide, or the editor doesn't remember where the edits are, we get the wrong thing on the CD. This has always been an irritation for me, as I have had to many times go in and do my own 45 edits. I used my own correct 45 edits of Boz Scaggs' "Lowdown" until it finally appeared on exactly one comp. Same with Wild Cherry's "Play That Funky Music". Interesting comments about Infinity. I always wondered exactly what happened to that label. They had a lot of hits in 1979, from Orleans, Spyro Gyra, Rupert Holmes, and Hot Chocolate. They had a great year in 1979. ------------- |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 1:11am
| I just went back to confirm what I know about the Super Hits version on Rhino. They did a custom edit of the LP version for this one, as the edit in the middle is ever-so-slightly off, and the fade is a few seconds too late. The only reason you would ever be able to tell that the edit is off is if you put it in the multi-tracker with the actual 45. |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 6:14am
Are you kidding? In these politically correct times where every time some radio host puts his foot in his mouth he's flagged as "racist"? |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 6:57am
| Does this mean that all 3:39 versions are that same custom edit that Rhino has? Would that indicate a 'neither the 45 nor LP' or 'edit of the LP in an unsuccessful attempt...' comment? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 10:13am
| No, it wouldn't warrant a "neither" comment. When I say that the edit is slightly off, we're talking about a fraction of a second. If you were to play the actual 45 and then play the CD, you'd think the edit was correct. A comment like "45 version but longer" would be more accurate. I was just stating the reason that the fade is longer is because it was a custom edit, and the reason I could tell it was a custom edit was because of the fraction of a second difference at the edit point. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 10:19am
|
Amazing info, Aaron! Thanks!
|
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 11:07am
I've long suspected a significant number of 45 versions that exist on CD are custom edited from their respective LP versions and other sources to replicate the 45. And I'd be willing to bet many of these custom edit points are off by a fraction of a second compared to their vinyl 45 counterparts (I've spotted several instances of this myself) because many mastering engineers, especially those working for the major record labels, just don't pay careful attention to detail like some of us do. Like Aaron said, most of the time these ever-so-slightly-off custom edits aren't noticeable unless you're doing a direct A/B comparison with the vinyl 45 using digital software. Yet this doesn't necessarily stop 45 "purists" who seek to obtain exact single version replicas in master tape/CD quality from feeling a bit uneasy about any less-than-precise editing! (Speaking for myself anyway.) |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 12:01pm
| To add to Todd's comment, it's possible that at the time this was done, the engineer only had the tape-and-razor-blade editing option. Even the best engineer could not likely replicate an edit EXACT using that method. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 12:06pm
|
And, with the razor blade method of editing, only one chance to get it right. No 'undo' capability like today...
:) |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 12:50pm
|
Actually, there *was* a way to undo a tape edit. LOL Back when I worked with razor blade editing, I'd been known on occasion to reach into the trash for a discarded piece of reel-to-reel tape to retrieve a syllable or a beat I had accidentally chopped off. Tedious and time consuming as it was, I would actually undo my tape splice to re-insert an itty bitty piece of the discarded tape containing the missing audio I needed. Then I'd have to tape all the pieces together again! All I can say is, thank God digital editing came along!!
Aaron's razor blade editing theory does bring up a good possible explanation as to why some of the 45 edits available on CD may not be exact. But then again, didn't most major record labels have digital editing capability by the time the popularity of the CD medium began to take off in the mid- to late 1980s? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 1:15pm
|
Again, to add to Todd's comment, it may be true that digital editing was avaiable by the late 80s (not sure). The question is: How accurate was the technology at the time? Perhaps you couldn't edit down to the sample, but rather just "in the neighborhood" with primitive digital editing tools. Furthermore, going back to Todd's original comment, even if those capabilities were available, most engineers would probably say "close enough" and move onto the next one.
LOL @ trying to splice tape sections back in. I hope someone's half eaten sandwich wasn't in the garbage with the tape! |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 1:34pm
| LOL! "Hey, how did this mayonnaise get on my tape???" |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 12 November 2014 at 4:29pm
|
The longest version I have on CD is 4:00, on EMI UK's Time To Remember 1978 and Disky UK's The Beat Goes On Vol. 9 (1997). I'm unclear if this was the UK 45 version, the UK LP version, or an early fade of some other version.
There's a version with a fade that ends about 5 seconds sooner on Warner Special Products' 2-CD Good Times (1991). There's a whole lotta hiss on the fade, and the opening note is missing its attack. The version on Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 19 1979 Take Two (1991) is based on Good Times but with the hiss removed. Avoid both of these, because the opening note sounds better on the other discs. Finally, there's an edit of the above version on Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 22 (1993). This edit removes 32 beats from 2:39 to 2:57 of the Time To Remember version, and fades about three seconds earlier than the Time To Remember version. Importantly, this version has a nice, smooth edit at 2:38.8. The same analog transfer is used for:
I should point out that the song was recorded with a live drummer playing to a click track. The versions on CD run at 107.8 BPM (UK and WSP discs) or 107.7 BPM (Rhino and the digital clones) throughout, with no drift. The edit in the true 45 is WAY off, and screws up the beat. Almost at "ouch" level. The Bill Inglot recreation on the Rhino disc is perfect, and falls squarely on the beat, where it should be. Personally, I kinda like bad edits ("My Life", "While You See A Chance", the extremely short 45 edit of "Paradise By The Dashboard Light"), but the edit on the true 45 of "Every 1's A Winner" is painful. In this case, I'm all in favor of going with Bill Inglot's recreation, even if it's 4 or 5 seconds longer than the true 45 ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 November 2014 at 8:47pm
|
I don't think the edit is bad at all (not like "While You See A Chance" or "Dream On" or "She's Gone). The beat is just slightly too quick. Not what I would call painful, though. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 12 November 2014 at 9:18pm
|
I don't mind the others because they're well executed, even if they're chosen to be in some very bad locations in the song. "While You See A Chance" keeps the beat throughout, even through the ayyyyy-eeeee.
In "Every 1's A Winner", the location is actually a very good place to put an edit, but whoever did the original 45 just plain missed. In my old analog splice tape days, I would never have let this one out the door. I can't really think of any other edits in hits that take out too much or too little material and screw up the beat of the song. And we've dealt with a LOT of 45 edits here on the board. Or... it could be that I'm just extra-sensitive to edits. :) ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 November 2014 at 9:40pm
|
You must be extremely sensitive to any drift in tempo. I'd say the edit is less than 4/100 of a second too early. By the way, Ron & I are both registered for that hair-splitters convention next month ;) ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 November 2014 at 3:09am
Psh, I can. Billy Joel "My Life" (loses the beat at 3:11 when the edit comes back in; comes in a hair too late) and Diana Ross "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" (where the background singers apparently sing "o wind, no rain" at 00:50). |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 13 November 2014 at 6:24am
Maybe it's just because I was familiar with the 45 version long before I heard the album, but to me the edit of "Dream On" sounds better...to my ears the stuff that was edited out sounds "tacked on" on the LP. Hate to say it, but the edits on "While You See A Chance" never jumped out at me. Then again I never really cared for the song, and didn't pay close attention. I'll have to give it another listen. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 14 November 2017 at 3:49pm
It appears that the commercial and promo 12" timings must be slightly different. The promo 12" runs an actual 7:18. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 15 November 2017 at 4:56am
Once you really hear it, you'll never be able to un-hear it! |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 28 August 2022 at 4:17am
|
The 4:49 version was released in 2011 on the 4-CD set https://www.discogs.com/release/2835634-Hot-Chocolate-Box-Selection-Their-8-RAK-Albums-1974-1983 - Box Selection .
It's somewhat brickwalled (DR 7). EQ is fine and no audible distortion, but I wish they had a lighter touch with the compressor. |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 22 June 2024 at 6:54pm
Good chance it is the UK 45 edit. This edit shows up often on US and UK CD releases. Here is the UK 45 playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmx5YDbD_oc&t=1s - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmx5YDbD_oc&t=1s ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |