Heart - Never on self-titled
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Topic: Heart - Never on self-titled
Posted By: aaronk
Subject: Heart - Never on self-titled
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 1:23pm
|
I thought I had brought this up a long time ago, but I couldn't find it via the search function...
My copy of the self-titled Heart CD with "Never" has the 45 version on it. Although the disc is at my parents' house, I'll give them a call to give me the matrix numbers on it. It's not a remastered version; in fact, it's one of the first CDs I owned, purchased in the early 90s. I'm wondering if their hits "Nothin' At All" and "These Dreams" were also included in the 45 version, too. I'll hopefully be able to report back soon. |
Replies:
Posted By: cmmmbase
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:10pm
| I've got the same CD. On it, both Never and Nothin' at All are in their 45 mix. These Dreams however is still in its original mix. Matrix #DIDX-405 11A16 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:14pm
| cmmmbase, thanks for the info! Since my CD is not handy, could you post the matrix and catalog number? I'm having mine mailed from Michigan. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:15pm
| Looks like you just did! Thanks... |
Posted By: cmmmbase
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:20pm
|
No Problem!
Chuck |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:27pm
| I believe "These Dreams" is a 'simple' edit. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:35pm
| I believe you're correct; however, I've never attempted it since I have the 45 edit on a radio compilation disc. |
Posted By: cmmmbase
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:41pm
| TM Century's gold library has the 45 edit of "These Dreams". It also shows up on the UK Now That's What I Call Music 1988 (a part of their millenium series from 1999). Appearantly it charted in April of 1988 in the UK... |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 7:55pm
| Printed on my "Heart" cd is the fact that it was manufactured in England and has no matrix number so I'll bet there were differences in the versions based upon where the cd was manufactured. |
Posted By: cmmmbase
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 8:31pm
| The disc that I have was made in the US....with a catalog # CDP 546157 |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 9:36pm
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The first copy of the "Heart" CD I bought back in 1987 came in the nostalgic longbox. I sold that CD years after, but I very clearly remember the disc itself stated "Made in Switzerland", and it was sold in the US.
In a similar way to others like the first three Madonna albums, for which early pressings' discs themselves were made in Japan or West Germany, before there were established manufacturing plants in the USA. I suppose they could be counted as domestic releases? Pat, how do you categorize these? Now, which versions it had, I don't remember : p The copy I own now is manufactured in the UK with catalog number CDP 7 46157 2. I assume it's the same you have, Pat. I have the Now double CD that Chuck mentions, and it has the 7" version of "These Dreams" indeed. I also have it on the "Never/These Dreams" UK CD maxi single. As far as the "Nothin' At All" UK CD sinlge, it says "remix", so I assume it's the 45 version, but haven't paid enough attention to compare it to the album version. The "Greatest Hits" (7243 5 27128 2 3) has all the singles off the "Heart" album but I don't know that I ever heard the 45 versions, so can't say what's in there. That's all I can help with, if it was any help! |
Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 11:37pm
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That Heart CD with the single mixes IS a second issue. When the song "Never" became a hit, the band decided to replace all futues runs with the new mixes and won't let the originals be used again. I have the original Capitol CD CDP 7 46157 2. It was pressed by Nimbus in England. I have trhe other one too, but i'm too lazy to pull it out as well. The mastering on the second edition doesn't even sound as good.
The original run can easily be identified because the first track starts two seconds after pressing the play button, whereas the subsequent issues start sooner. |
Posted By: budaniel
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 5:05am
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the original album mixes of both "Never" and "Nothin at All" are now at least on the heart collection "Essential". Odd that they would choose to use those versions on this compilation, but hey, at least they're available for completists!
|
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 6:41am
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Now I'm confused, don't know if my "Heart" album has the originals or 45 versions of "Never" and "Nothin' At All". Can you please give me clues as to how to tell the album vs. 45 versions? |
Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 10:20am
Easiest way to tell is that on the song "Never", there is a vocal part on the intro where Ann sings "Oh ywah!" on the single. |
elcoleccionista wrote:Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 8:23pm
|
Thanks Grant.
My UK CD has the 45 versions of "Nothin'" and "Never". I bet the longbox one I bought in '87 had the originals, darn. And thanks Daniel, I listened to the "Essential" disc and clearly they are the originals. "Nothin' At All" is in most parts if not all, a completely different vocal take. |
Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 11:06pm
| That the original mix of "Never" showed up on the Essential CD set shocked me when I first bought and listened to it... |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 6:45am
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"There's The Girl" is also the original album version on the Essential CD.
I wonder if we have a similar case with different "Bad Animals" album pressings? |
Posted By: Grant
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 6:46pm
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Posted By: Paul Esch
Date Posted: 15 July 2006 at 6:02am
|
Just to add another little tidbit of information; I know Pat doesn't
count this kind of CD, but the second edition of Heart was also distributed by BMG Music Club (original catalog # D1244276). I got my copy in 1990. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 July 2006 at 1:41pm
|
Music club issues are exactly the same as the copies that are in print. The only difference is that they occasionally change the catalog number (although the original # can usually be found somewhere on the disc or insert) and remove the UPC.
I have lots of BMG/Columbia House issues, and I cannot find anything different about them when comparing to retail store CDs pressed at the same time. If I'm not mistaken, they come from the same pressing plants as the store bought CDs, just with modified catalog numbers. I've even received some that had no indication of a music club at all. Same catalog number -- no "under license" statment -- no "CRC" on the insert/disc. Anyone have insider info on this? |
Posted By: Underground Dub
Date Posted: 07 August 2006 at 7:12pm
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It's also worth mentioning that the minor hit "I Want You So Bad" appears (uncredited) in its 7" Remix form on the aforementioned Nothin' At All UK CD Single. The only compilation to feature this track, The Essential, uses the Bad Animals LP Version.
The amount of added overacting by Ann in the form of "Oh Ywah!"'s throughout this version makes the Never intro seem tame by comparison. |
Posted By: MCT1
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 3:56pm
I came across this thread while perusing the archives and wanted to throw out some comments on the above. Historically, most of the major record clubs in the U.S. were owned by record companies. The two biggest were the Columbia Record Club (later known as Columbia House), owned by Columbia Records/CBS, and the RCA Record Club (later BMG Music Service), owned by RCA Records, which was eventually bought by BMG. Capitol Records also had its own record club in the '50s and '60s. They sold it off in the late '60s and it went completely out of business in 1973. In addition to the record companies mentioned above, Warner Music also acquired a half interest in Columbia House in the early '90s. Record club disclaimers only appeared on titles on record labels which had no affiliation with the club's owner. In other words, if you bought an album on Columbia Records from Columbia House, it would have been completely identical to a normal retail copy, not marked as a record club pressing in any way. The same would be true of an album on RCA bought through the RCA Record Club, an album on Warner Bros. bought through Columbia House in 2000, or an album on Capitol bought through the Capitol Record Club in 1965. On the other hand, an album on MCA bought through any club, an album on Atlantic bought from Columbia House in 1987, or an album on Capitol bought from the Capitol Record Club in 1971 would all be marked in some way as a record club edition. Why was this? Record clubs assumed responsibility for distributing (and in at least some cases, actually manufacturing) the product that they sold. If a title was on one of their parent company's own labels, they had no particular need to mark it as a record club edition, since it was their parent company's responsibility either way. Consequently, there is no such thing as a Columbia House pressing of an album that was on Columbia, or an RCA Record Club pressing of an album that was on RCA. But a label not affiliated with CBS or BMG was not responsible for product sold through CBS' or BMG's record clubs. CBS and BMG were. If someone tried to return a record club copy to a store for credit, the non-affiliated label wouldn't take it back, since it wasn't really their responsibility. The non-affiliated label, CBS and BMG all needed a way to distinguish copies distributed through these clubs from copies distributed through normal retail channels. Hence, the "under license" disclaimers and other record club markings. In the early days, it's my understanding that record clubs would actually manufacture their own non-affiliated label product themselves. For example, a Columbia Record Club copy of an album on Atlantic was generally pressed by Columbia, not by the plants Atlantic normally used. Part of the financial setup that made record clubs work was the ability to obtain records directly from the factory. Just as Columbia Record Club obtained titles on Columbia straight from Columbia's own factories, they obtained titles on other labels from the same factories. I'm sure it's no coincidence that the Columbia and RCA record clubs were both headquartered in cities where their parents had pressing plants. Over time, as the record industry came to be dominated by just a handful of conglermerates, and albums moved away from LPs to formats that were smaller and cheaper to ship, I suspect that it may have come to make sense for the clubs to obtain product from the originating labels rather than make it themselves. I have a lot of Columbia House CDs from the late '80s and early '90s (from the time period before Warner bought into Columbia House) on Warner Music labels which look to me like they were actually manufactured by Warner Music. (FWIW, I've also noticed some Columbia House CDs where the packaging has record club markings, but the disc itself doesn't.) So, particularly in recent times, it may be that many record club pressings did come from the same factories that made normal retail copies. But I wouldn't assume that this is always true. There are definitely some cases where it wasn't. As for record club pressings being the same as normal retail copies, they *should* be. But from the archives I'm amazed at how many cases you guys have uncovered where two different pressings of the same title differ, so I guess you never know. Even beyond the nornal chances of that, in cases where the record club was manufacturing an album themselves, they were working independently from the originating label, so it's possible that their master somehow didn't match what the originating label was using for its own copies. A well-known, if extreme and unusual, example would be copies of the Beatles' Yesterday And Today album pressed by the Capitol Record Club after it separated from Capitol Records. Three songs which were in fake stereo on contemporary Capitol-pressed vinyl copies were in true stereo on the master that Capitol sent to the club. That episode aside, some record collectors actually shun record club pressings on the theory that clubs were using a master at least one generation removed from what the originating label was using. Record club pressings would also sometimes skimp on packaging, omitting things like gatefold covers and inner sleeves. All that having been said, I have no information on the Heart album that was the original subject of this thread. Looking at my Columbia House CDs on Capitol/EMI labels, I notice that those from later in the '90s look like they were pressed by Capitol/EMI themselves, while copies from earlier in the decade appear to have been pressed by CBS/Sony. I'm not sure if there's any significance to this, i.e., whether Capitol/EMI might have been using CBS/Sony to press normal retail copies in that era, or if these were pressed by CBS/Sony only because they were Columbia House editions. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 5:18pm
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<raises hand in the back of the room>
Yes, my question since it was hinted at in this thread, has anyone edited down the LP version of "These Dreams" to a 45 version? Edit points? |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 5:40pm
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Oops, never mind...
Turns out, filed away I had it on the UK Now That's What I Call Music CD. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 8:22pm
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I'm trying to edit "These Dreams" from the long version I have on "Greatest Hits" (I have the 45) and I'm not getting the perfect edit they did. I can tell it occurs somewhere during the line "these dreams in the mist" -- that line occurs both at the end of verse 1 & verse 2. It doesn't seem to be right before the word "dreams" because the strings don't line up right. And it doesn't seem to be right before the next word "in". It seems to be somewhere in the middle of the word "dreams" -- before the "s", but I'm not really sure what's going on and am not nailing the edit. So where exactly is the edit?
Also, was the 45 sped up compared to the version on "Greatest Hits"? It seems faster to me on the 45. |
Posted By: 995wlol
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 8:39pm
| The edit is a tough one to get just right--it is during the "...ms..." in the word "dreams." It actually sounds a bit choppy on the 45 and I've never been completly satisfied with my recreation--it sounds a bit too smooth. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 8:40pm
| If you guys would like, I'll shoot off an email with my copy so you can compare. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 10:34pm
| Thanks, John, for sending this. After writing my post above, but before receiving your file, I tried one more attempt - right before the "s" of dreams. And like 995wlol, I wound up with an edit smoother than the actual single edit, which, when I later heard on CD from John, it was much more choppy than I could tell from my scratchy 45! |
Posted By: abagon
Date Posted: 23 May 2011 at 9:19am
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(S) (4:04) Capitol 46157 Heart (some pressings of this cd feature the LP version and others the 45 version)
"Never" on my "Heart" U.S. pressing vinyl LP is also the same situation as the above comment, and contains the 45 version. (Capitol ST-12410, matrix # on the run out groove Side 1 "ST 1-12410-RE1-21" Side 2 "ST-2-12410 Z3") However, "Nothin' At All" doesn't contain the 45 version on the LP. I feel that my "Heart" LP is perhaps 2nd pressing. Also, "Never" on the Japan pressing LP that I bought in mid 80's contains the LP version. --abagon |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 05 July 2011 at 7:08pm
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Bumping this thread up. It does cover editing details on "These Dreams" using the LP version to get to the 45 version (plus where to find the 45 version on CD). ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Fetta
Date Posted: 05 July 2011 at 7:18pm
| Thanks Aaron... Not sure why I didnt see this thread. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 26 April 2013 at 8:28pm
|
So what is the difference between the 45 and album version
of "Never"? They both appear to run the same length. I have the Japanese import of their Greatest Hits, but I have no idea if that has the 45 version of "Never" or not and no idea how to tell. |
Posted By: 995wlol
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 9:39am
The official video contains the 45 version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWzy5q_M5Ho - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWzy5q_M5Ho The LP version is mixed differently and includes a different vocal take. |
Posted By: Tim Lyman
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 2:31am
| My MFSL 597 copy of the "Heart" album also uses the 45 versions of "Never" and "Nothin' At All". It's an Ultradisc II pressing with "MFD BY JVC" and "UDCD 597 1C" printed backwards on the inner ring. There is also what appears to be the number "11" machine-stamped into the inner ring after the "1C". |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 12:43pm
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I have both CD pressings of the album. I've never noticed
a different vocal take on the remix. There is more compression, and the guitars and keyboards are louder on the 45 remix. The song also fades earlier. Everything is more "in-your-face" The first pressings of the CD contain the original album mix. My CDs are all in storage so I can't supply the cat. numbers. ------------- |
Posted By: 995wlol
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 4:25pm
Maybe not the entire track, but compare the fist few lines of the second verse--they are definitely different takes. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 7:51pm
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Yes, there are also additional ad libs on the intro of the 45 version that are not on the LP version. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |