Toy Soldiers - Martika
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Topic: Toy Soldiers - Martika
Posted By: Pat Downey
Subject: Toy Soldiers - Martika
Date Posted: 17 March 2005 at 8:30am
| Just reviewed the new Martika Greatest Hits cd titled "Toy Soldiers - The Best Of" and found the title track to be interesting in that they faded "Toy Soldiers" :30 earler than the LP. Then I got to looking at the current entries in the 10th edition of Top 40 Music On CD and found a couple of listings for a 45 version of this song so I pulled out my promo 45 to see if it was really faded early and the answer is no it is not. The promo 45 lists one side as being the LP version running 4:52 and the other side is listed as the 45 version running 4:52. After listening to both, I hear no difference so the the question is, can anyone point out a difference between the 45 version of "Toy Soldiers" and the LP version of "Toy Soldiers"? The entries in the 10th edition that state "45 version" are incorrect as those cd's are missing the introduction found on both the LP and 45 so I will now have to change the comment to "neither the 45 or LP version". |
Replies:
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 17 March 2005 at 1:57pm
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Pat:
I have a U.K. import Martika CD not available in the U.S. called The Best of Martika: More Than You Know released in 1997 (Columbia 4885812). The CD jacket states that "Toy Soldiers" is the single version. I pulled out my copy and noticed that the song contains the children's chorus introduction but fades out at 4:18, which is :34 sooner than the LP version. This sounds very similar to your description of "Toy Soldiers" on the CD you reviewed, Pat. I'm wondering if there's a different commercial or promo single pressing where the song fades early like this? My import CD also claims it contains the single version of "I Feel the Earth Move" and "More Than You Know". I can assure everyone that "I Feel the Earth Move" is definitely not the single version here as it runs 4:12, unlike the 45 which finishes at 4:04. In fact, I can tell the producers of the import disc pulled the track directly from Martika's 1989 self-titled debut album (Columbia 44290) because when "I Feel the Earth Move" ends you can actually hear a split second of the intro to "Water", which is the song that seamlessly follows "I Feel the Earth Move" on the debut album. The underlying point here is the CD jacket is not always correct when it states a song is the "single version" (unless of course the single version was different in Europe than in the U.S.). Meanwhile, I listened to the alleged single version of "More Than You Know" on the import CD and here are some things I found to be different than the LP version: 1) the song is missing the very first two notes; 2) the mix is slightly different overall; and 3) the fade begins sooner and lasts approximately :07 longer than the that of the LP version. The song's run time on the import disc is 4:03. Does this entire description match anyone's 45 or cassette single copy of "More Than You Know"? |
Posted By: Moderator
Date Posted: 17 March 2005 at 8:21pm
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I don't know if there were 2 different 45's pressed of "Toy Soldiers" but the version on her new US cd titled "Toy Soldiers - Best Of" is the same one that you are describing Todd as being on the U.K. Best Of cd and labeled the 45 version (at least in Europe). Whitburn lists the running time as 4:52 and my dj copy runs 4:52 so if anyone has another 45 version other than the 4:52 version, please step forward. ------------- Top 40 Music On Compact Disc Moderator |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 8:03am
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<if anyone has another 45 version other than the 4:52 version, please step forward.>
I don't have the 45, but I do have a friend who produced & co-wrote "Toy Soldiers", and we had a discussion on this very subject three years ago. I'll have to confirm it with him, but as I recall, the shorter version which is missing the acapella intro (and can be found on Rhino's "Billboard Top Hits 1989") was a version submitted to radio after the song began taking off. Apparently, there was a need for a shorter version, but this isn't an edit because the word "soldiers" at the end of the acapella section overlaps with the instrumentation that comes next (on the original version), and on this version the instrumentation starts cold, and obviously you don't hear the second syllable of "soldiers". So I guess this version can be described as "radio version", although I think many radio stations did not play this version, so that might be misleading. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 8:24am
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My original UK CD single (commercial) for Toy Soldiers contains a version called "Edit" version and runs 4:18, though the label sleeve claims 4:15.
1. Toy Soldiers (edit) (actual 4:18) 2. It's Not What You're Doing (actual 4:11) 3. Exchange of Hearts (actual 4:19) It says Toy Soldiers is a "special version" from the LP "Martika" (all CBS singles say that, if there's anything different about the song at all), but it says Toy Soldiers is mixed by Humberto Gatica, and mixed by Keith Cohen, from the LP "Martika." So I don't know if Toy Soldiers is a remix or not. Anyone got her album to see who mixed the LP version? |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 8:26am
| The above was supposed to say "It's Not What You're Doing" was mixed by Keith Cohen. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 8:40am
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<It says Toy Soldiers is a "special version" from the LP "Martika" ...it says Toy Soldiers is mixed by Humberto Gatica. So I don't know if Toy Soldiers is a remix or not. Anyone got her album to see who mixed the LP version?>
It's all coming back to me now. Humberto Gatica did do a remix (and a great sounding one at that.) The version on the Rhino CD that I referenced above was certainly remixed by him. Whether there exists a longer version (with acapella intro) that is also mixed by him -- I'll have to ask my friend. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 8:41am
| And just to be clear, though I do not have the Martika album, the version on the album was not mixed by Humberto. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 11:34am
|
OK, I just got the scoop from my friend who produced and co-wrote this song. Humberto G. did the single mix, which DOES include the acapella intro. It has the same instruments as the album version (no new sounds were added), but just mixed better and more clearly. This mix was available on the 45, cassette single, and the promo CD single. It is the same length as the album version.
Radio stations were shortening the song because it was rather long, so apparently, there was an edit provided to radio, but my friend knew nothing about it until I showed him the Rhino CD a few years ago. It was not even on the promo CD single, which only had one mix, which was full-length. My friend was at the studio with Humberto and he knows there was no other edits/mixes done. So my guess is the record company just did some quick edit to supply to radio stations requesting a shorter version, and for some reason, that is the version that ended up on the Rhino "Billboard 1989" CD. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't really call it the radio version, because it was not the version played on most radio stations and was not used in the video. It's almost like an alternate version, and it just happened to show up on the Rhino CD. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 5:10pm
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I do have the LP version of "Toy Soldiers" on Martika's self-titled 1989 CD (Columbia 44290) and the liner notes say that the song was mixed by Michael McDonald at Garden Rake Studio in Sherman Oaks, California. (This wouldn't be the Michael McDonald of Doobie Brothers fame, would it???) So apparently, the single versions of "Toy Soldiers" were indeed remixed.
My memory is very hazy here, but I ever so vaguely seem to recall hearing the 4:36 version from the Billboard Top Hits - 1989 (Rhino 71644) on a local Adult Contemporary radio station and wondering what had happened to the children's chorus intro. And EdisonLite brings up a good point... The intro without the children's chorus would have had to come directly from the multi-track master tapes to prevent the vocal bleedover during the instrumental introduction. So this version must have been intended for radio airplay unless it was an alternate take that got axed in favor of the full-length versions. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 18 March 2005 at 5:17pm
| Oops, I meant to say "alternate version", not "alternate take". And again I can't say for certain if I ever heard this version on the radio, so for now it's probably best to just assume I haven't. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 2:36am
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Thanks for the info on "Toy Soldiers," EdisonLite. I did want to make one minor correction: The so-called "edit" on Billboard Top Hits 1989 could have just been someone cutting off the intro. If you listen to the version on that CD, you'll notice that the intro music is only one measure long (four seconds). The version that has the acapella intro has two measures from the time the music kicks in until the first verse starts. The word "soldiers" only overlaps with that first measure of music.
The question remains...which CDs contain the "remixed" single version (including the intro), and which contain the LP version? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 2:53am
| P.S. The easiest way I can tell which is the remix and which is the LP version (since there's not any added instrumentation) is that right before the chorus, when the kids sing "won't you come out and play with me," there is an electronic hand clap that has quite a bit of reverb on the remixed version. The LP version has very little reverb on that hand clap. Also the music right after the acapella intro sounds quite a bit different, but I can't describe the difference in writing. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 1:10am
|
I found the 45 version of "Toy Soldiers" on a commercial CD, albeit an OOP UK import. It's on a 1993 Martika CD called "Twelve Inch Mixes, a collection of extended remixes of her songs, and they refer to Toy Soldiers as "Special Version." Liner notes say it was remixed by Humberto Gatica, and Aaron's description matches what I'm hearing. Actual running time is 4:52.
It's not all THAT rare, and accordingly shouldn't go for a whole lot of money... I just got mine on Ebay for about five bucks U.S. The shipping from the UK was more than the CD was. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 8:53am
| Good info, Brian! |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:03am
|
I looked for the Gatica remix for a while. Last year I saw the 2 track promo CD on Ebay but missed it. Until I finally came across the 12" Mixes CD, and Brian is correct, it can easily be found on Ebay, and rarely fetches more than US$15 if that much.
If it helps, another way to easily tell album version from the remix, is at the very end, after the last sung section "...like toy soldiers..". On Gatica's remix the drumstick sound kicks in a few seconds later than on the album version, where it comes in right after. |
Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 02 July 2007 at 6:25pm
| I have this track on a Canadian various artists compilation titled "Lady Power" (Quality Records QRSPD-1124 [1991]). It times out at 4:43 in Acoustica. I've tried listening to determine (based on all the previous information) which mix I have, but just can't tell. Is anybody else familiar with this CD who might help me out? |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 02 July 2007 at 7:42pm
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i found the true 45 version on the 3" import cd single... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 9:38am
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Here is the info from my promo CD single (CSK 1563). Directly under Cut 1's title, it does specifically say "Produced by Michael Jay; Mixed by Humberto Gatica for Hum, Inc. Productions". And directly under Cut 2's title, it does specifically say "Produced by Michael Jay; engineered and mixed by Michael McDonald".
1-(Single Version) (listed 4:52; actual 4:51) 2-(LP Version) (listed 4:52; actual 4:47) |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 12:07pm
| Is the Japanese version listed in the database the 45 or LP mix? |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 11 May 2008 at 1:37pm
my commercial 45 issued as columbia 68747 states a run time on the label of 4:52 but actually runs 4:51...the 45 wasn't released with a picture sleeve beacuse the record copies began faded out their issuance of picture sleeve by 1989, but the commercial cassingle does have a nice picture on the front of her.....maybe this was the picture sleeve issued overseas if it had one.....i found the true 45 version on the import 3" cd single scanned below...the 3" cd single has a green and orange sticker on the front which was from the record company i bought it from years ago...
 ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: MCT1
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 8:19am
The CBS family of labels completely stopped issuing picture sleeves in the U.S. around the beginning of 1989, probably just after the new year. Around this time, the first digit of the catalog numbers on CBS U.S. singles changed from a "0" to a "6". That seems to have happened right about the first of the year, and I've seen picture sleeves for only a few U.S. CBS 45s with catalog numbers starting with the "6". "More Than You Know" was the only Martika single to be released before that point, and thus was, AFAIK, the only Martika 45 ever issued with a picture sleeve in the U.S. CBS was the first of the U.S. major labels to completely dump picture sleeves. All of the other majors kept making them until at least mid-1989, with MCA and Capitol/EMI the next two to bail. The others continued into late 1989 or even on a limited basis into early 1990. CBS' discontinuance of picture sleeves came about six months after CBS Records had been sold to Sony, though the name of the company hadn't yet been officially changed to Sony Music. I'm not sure whether the change in ownership played any role in the decision to drop them. IIRC, one of the Canadian regulars here (torcan) once told me on another forum that CBS kept making picture sleeves in Canada for quite some time after they had dropped them in the U.S., so it may have had nothing to do with the Sony takeover at all. |
edtop40 wrote:Posted By: Underground Dub
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 3:09pm
| Excellent info from both of you. Always appreciated/enjoyed! :) |
Posted By: boynamedfoo
Date Posted: 24 September 2016 at 8:49am
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Has anyone bought the version that claims to be the (Single
Mix) off of Itunes "21 Totally 80s Hits" by Sony. This version seems to be a bit rare short of imports and I was wondering before I got it? Thanks if you know. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 27 September 2016 at 12:14pm
| If that's the compilation that came out 1 1/2 years ago, or so, I was told by Sony it was the full 4:52 single remix. |
Posted By: PopArchivist
Date Posted: 16 August 2020 at 9:52pm
I would be quite interested Brian W to know if the 4:15 is an early fade or removes parts of the 4:52 45 version. I am also looking for this edit as part of my 1989 Hot 100 assembly... ------------- Favorite two expressions to live by on this board: "You can't download vinyl" and "Not everything is available on CD." |
Posted By: thecdguy
Date Posted: 17 August 2020 at 5:54am
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The version I have on Toy Soldiers - The Best Of Martika runs 4:18 and it appears to be an early fade of the album version. (I assume this is the same as the UK Single Version). It fades out while Martika is still singing whereas the Album Version fades out with just instrumentation. I didn't notice if it was the same mix as the slightly remixed US 45, and there are no remix credits given in the liner notes of the CD (only songwriters for each song are listed). ------------- Dan In Philly |
Posted By: PopArchivist
Date Posted: 26 December 2022 at 7:58pm
Sad because the Rhino Billboard series was pretty accurate until this volume! ------------- Favorite two expressions to live by on this board: "You can't download vinyl" and "Not everything is available on CD." |