Jim Steinman "Rock ’n Roll Dreams ..."
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Topic: Jim Steinman "Rock ’n Roll Dreams ..."
Posted By: EdisonLite
Subject: Jim Steinman "Rock ’n Roll Dreams ..."
Date Posted: 15 May 2005 at 2:06pm
| Pat, I noticed in your book (I have the 9th ed.) you list the 6:25 version of this song as "LP version" and the 5:25 version as the "45 version." Since Steinman's LP didn't actually contain "R&R Dreams" but it was included on a 45 that came inside the sealed LP, was THAT 45 (presumably what you call the LP version) any different from the commercial single? I have the commercial single and it contains the 5:25 song and "0:53 Choral Reprise", which totals almost 6:25. I assume that this would not differ from the long 6:25 version included with the LP. (My LP was something I bought used, years later, and there was no 45 included.) It seems to me the "45 version" (5:25) on the CD you cite in the book is not the 45 version, as my 45 is approximately 6:25. Is this shorter (5:25) version available on the promo 45? |
Replies:
Posted By: Moderator
Date Posted: 15 May 2005 at 4:21pm
|
Hmmm, this is a good catch and a very interesting situation. I do not have the vinyl LP - I just assumed the cd release of the LP "Bad For Good" was identical to the vinyl counterpart. This is apparantly incorrect from what you say as the single must have been added as a bonus track on the cd. Now here is where things turn ugly. I have the white label dj copy of this 45 and it runs 4:28 on one side and the other side says "Rock And Roll Dreams Come Through" (5:18) and below that "Choral Reprise" (:53). Joel Whitburn lists the 45 time as (5:18) and so the question is, should we include the "Choral Reprise" as part of the 45 or not. There is a pause between the two segments on the vinyl 45 which makes assigning a run time a very difficult call. What do our chat board members think about this situation????
To further complicate matters, the cd "Bad For Good" which includes this cut as a bonus track, does not mention "Choral Reprise" on the jacket yet runs (6:25). This is going to take some explaining in the next edition of my book so let's hear some comments froum our chat board members on how to handle this very unusual situation. ------------- Top 40 Music On Compact Disc Moderator |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 15 May 2005 at 5:15pm
|
The "Bad For Good" CD contains the bonus cuts "R&R Dreams Come Through" and "The Storm". These were not ON the LP but were IN the LP .. the LP jacket, that is. A rather unique situation. So can we even call any version the "LP version"?
Since the only version available commercially was the 6:25 version (which was included with the LP and was on the commercial 45), I would refer to the 2 shorter versions as "dj edits". Even though radio usually ommitted the choral reprise, the commercial versions all had the reprise -- so those shorter versions are simply radio edits, and the longer version is the main version (ie. the single and album have the same version.) I would argue that the song was included INSIDE the LP as a 45 and should be considered as any song on an ALBUM, with an asterisk/footnote/header that says, "technically, the LP contained "R&R Dreams" as a 45, inserted within the shrinkwrap. Hope that helps. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 16 May 2005 at 11:09am
|
Based on the information gathered here about Jim Steinman's "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through", here is how I would attempt to write the explanation for the 11th edition. Granted, this is open to debate, modification, and revision:
This song did not actually appear on the original Bad for Good vinyl LP release but some copies included the song as a bonus 45. On commercial 45 copies, the song runs (5:25) and is then followed by a separate (:59) ending titled "CHORAL REPRISE" for a grand total run time of (6:25). The 45 label shows the "CHORAL REPRISE" with a run time of (:53). DJ copies of this 45 run (4:28) on one side and (6:25?) on the other. For the version running (6:25?), the DJ 45 label breaks down the song and shows the run times as follows: "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" (5:18); "Choral Reprise" (:53). So to answer Pat's question, yes, I think the Choral Reprise should be included as part of the 45. To me, this situation is very similar to Neil Diamond's "Walk on Water" where the commercial 45 and LP version both include a 1:37 instrumental ending titled "THEME". In the 10th edition, I like how Pat comments which CDs have "Walk on Water" tracking into "THEME" and which do not include "THEME" at all. In the case of "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through", I would simply comment: (contains the "CHORAL REPRISE" ending) or ("does not contain the "CHORAL REPRISE" ending) for each of the song's CD appearances when applicable. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 13 September 2007 at 6:33pm
| I have just pulled out my promo 45 for this. Firstly, the DJ 45 short version has a listed time of (4:28), as Pat correctly states in the database, but has an actual time of (4:34). This version fades out, and is the only version of this song I have EVER known that does NOT include the "choral reprise." The "long version" of my promo 45 exactly mirrors my commercial 45. They both state a time of (5:18), with "Choral Reprise" listed separately, with a stated time of (:53). Adding these two listed times together, it comes out to a total of (6:11). However, the actual long version and commercial 45 time combined is, in fact, :14 seconds longer, at (6:25), the same as two of the CDs currently in the database. Personally, I feel that the two current (5:25) database CD versions of this song (the ones that omit the "choral reprise") are totally bogus, since, 1) they are NOT the correct DJ 45 short version, and, 2) there was never ANY other Cleveland Int'l/Epic 1981 release of this song that omitted the "choral reprise." I do acknowlege that some radio stations "dumped out" of the choral reprise back then, but, to my knowledge, those were in-house radio station decisions, and did not occur via a unique, legitimate vinyl option, provided to radio that way by the record label. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 October 2007 at 12:49am
| Just bumping this thread back up for Pat, because I noticed the timing information had not been added to the database. As Jim notes above, the DJ 45 really runs (4:34), not (4:28) as the label states. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 25 July 2008 at 5:28pm
|
I think we need to revisit this one again... As was suggested previously, the database states:
DJ copies of this 45 run (4:34) not (4:28) as stated on the record label and (6:25). But in my humble opinion, this explanation is a bit oversimplfied because it doesn't acknowledge how the record label states the song and the choral reprise separately. These comments also don't acknowledge any commercial 45 info... Abagon has informed me his commercial 45 copy lists "ROCK AND ROLL DREAMS COME THROUGH" which runs 5:23, not 5:18 as stated on the label, and the "CHORAL REPRISE", which runs :58, not :53 as stated on the label, for a total run time of 6:22 with approximately :01 of silence in between. (This length, however, is several seconds shorter than what Jim reported previously for his commercial copy.) I think it should also be mentioned that "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" did not appear directly on Jim Steinman's Bad for Good vinyl LP, but was included with the LP as a bonus 45. I'm sorry... I know this song creates a nightmare as far as database notations go, but I think the situation lends itself to some additional detail than what is currently provided in the database. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 9:28am
| I agree Todd. These details should be included. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 27 July 2008 at 10:24am
|
Just an observation for those who own the short promo 45 for this song. It seems as though they crossfaded into part of the choral reprise and then faded out of it. It actually seems pretty smooth.
I'm glad I was able to find a nice copy of the promo recently. |
Posted By: abagon
Date Posted: 27 July 2008 at 11:19pm
|
Todd: I apologize for an error.
The sound volume of the 45 is low, so I turned the volume up. Then, I realized the reflection of the echo at the end of "CHORAL REPRISE ." Therefore, the actual running time is: 5:23 and :59, the total is 6:23. I verified the commercial 45 of "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" and the US PROMO bonus 7 inch (33 rpm) of it. The commercial 45: (6:23) "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" (5:23.964) / "Silence" (:00.476) / "CHORAL REPRISE " (:59.267) The bonus PROMO LP 7 inch (33 rpm): (6:25) "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" (5:25.421) / "Silence" (:01.689) / "CHORAL REPRISE " (:58.607) As the difference of "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through", the 45 is faded out earlier than the bonus 33. As the difference of "CHORAL REPRISE " the echo reflection of the 45 is longer than the bonus 33. The speed between the 45 and the 33 are about the same. (the 45 speed is very slight faster than the 33.) |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 28 July 2008 at 8:59pm
| Thanks for the clarification, abagon. I don't understand why the record company elected to press a slightly different 45 for inclusion with the Bad for Good LP release, instead of just using the commercial 45! Obviously, these record execs never had the foresight to see how complicated they were going to make everything years later for Pat's database! :-) |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 29 July 2008 at 5:40am
Actually, the "bonus record" included with the album was an EP, not a 45. Played at 33 (IIRC) and had a small hole. I think I have a promo version of it at home, never seen a stock copy of it. |
Todd Ireland wrote:Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 2:48pm
|
Pictures!
The commercial 45 - note that the two tracks are separated by a band: 
The back credits of the original LP: 
The sleeve front/back of the little 7" that came with the original LP: 
The label front/back on the little 7" that came with the original LP - note that there is no band separating the tracks on "Rock & Roll ...": 
I have a 12" promo single for this song, which has a nice edit that shortens the sax solo, but I can't find it in the basement. It omits the choral reprise, and fades where the other version fades. The back cover of the CD - note that the song is now considered part of the album: 
The CD itself, with an incorrect listing for the track time (it runs in the neighborhood of 6:27): 
A CD compilation that includes the track, also with an incorrect track listing (it runs 6:26 with outro silence): 
If I had sheet music, I'd scan that in, too... For what it's worth, I think the song should be considered part of the album, just like the songs on the bonus 45 from "Songs In The Key Of Life". If you bought the album "Bad For Good" at any point in its shelf life, in any configuration, you always got the song "Rock & Roll Dreams Come Through". |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 3:15pm
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I have the sheet music for "R&R Dreams Come Through"! Too bad I can't do scanning! :)
|
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 4:15pm
|
That compilation has a bit of Cleveland and Pittsburgh flavored rock there with Eric Carmen's Euclid Beach Band ("I Need You" was an awesome ballad from them) and the Iron City Houserockers from the 'Burgh.
Of course, "Cleveland Rocks" was the theme song to the Drew Carey show early on... |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 4:30pm
| Ron, great work!! A batch of popcorn would have been the perfect accompaniment for such a thorough and enlightening picture show. Next time I'll come prepared. :) |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 6:22pm
| I notice that on both the "Bad For Good" and the "Cleveland Rocks" CDs the listed times are 5:24 & 5:18 respectively. Is the acapella reprise missing on those CDs? |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 6:38pm
|
I recall hearing a custom version of R&RDCT on a Cleveland Top 40 station (WGCL maybe?) when the song was current. The custom part was the acapella reprise where the stations calls/slogan were substituted in the chorus. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 8:04pm
No, it's there on both CDs, and the printed time is wrong on both. |