Whitney Houston - How Will I Know
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Topic: Whitney Houston - How Will I Know
Posted By: aaronk
Subject: Whitney Houston - How Will I Know
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 2:13pm
| My 8th Edition of Pat's book doesn't mention anything about different versions of "How Will I Know" by Whitney Houston (other than the Junior Vasquez Remix that is included on Greatest Hits). I have the self-titled CD with this track on it, and it IS the same as the 45 version. However, I am 99% sure that LP and cassette copies of Whitney Houston contained a different mix...namely, the LP Version. Can anyone back me up on this? |
Replies:
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 2:28pm
| Even the 10th edition does not mention this but it will be mentioned in future editions. Some pressings of the cd "Whitney Houston" Arista 8212 feature the LP version of this song running (4:27) and others feature the 45 version running (4:34). |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 4:47pm
|
Hmm, I didn't know the single was a different mix. Interesting. I do have the original-original pressing of her CD (the one with the original mix of "Greatest Love of All"), so I'll have to compare them.
I know there was an edit of the dance remix of "How Will I Know" that issued as the B-side of "Love Will Save the Day." I have it on a Japanese CD3 single. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 6:46pm
| There are at least 3 different versions of the "Whitney Houston" CD. My friend bought it right at the beginning when it had the acoustic piano version of "Greatest Love" and the album version of "How Will I Know". My later pressing (from '86 or '87) had different versions of both these songs. However, I really wanted the acoustic version of "Greatest" so I was able to track down a CD that had this version in '88 but it didn't have the early version of "How Will I know." So I know for a fact there are 3 different pressings. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 5:05am
|
It sounds to me that my CD also has the remix of How Will I Know and the acoustic Greatest Love of All.
Pat, is there any way you can post the matrix number of the CD with the original How Will I Know, if you've got it? |
Posted By: Moderator
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 6:00am
|
Here's what I have:
How Will I Know with LP version and Greatest Love acoustic version has the following matrix numbers 51AARCD 8212-2 04 How Will I Know with 45 version and Greatest Love electric version has X9 1822 ARCD 8212 ------------- Top 40 Music On Compact Disc Moderator |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 12:38pm
| Thanks! My Japanese pressing with the 45 How Will I Know and acoustic Greatest Love is hard to read, but it's either LOAL 62 or 1OA1 62 ARCD-5212. |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 9:20pm
| I have a US version of the CD (ARCD 8212) with the remixed versions of "How Will I Know" and "Greatest Love", and a German pressing (610 359) with the original ones. |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 11:06pm
|
Since we're on the topic of the versions of "How Will I Know" and "Greatest Love Of All" found on different printings of the album.
Have you noticed on both, not only the production of the song, but Whitney's vocals are different? HOW WILL I KNOW: LP Version: Right after the saxophone section she repeats "how will I know" several times and then goes "hey hey, hey hey" (at 3:36). Remix Version: Right after the saxophone section she repeats "how will I know" several times and then goes "ooohhhh" (at 3:44). And interestingly enough, the edited remix found as B side of "Love Will Save The Day" that Brian quoted, contains both those vocals "superimposed". GREATEST LOVE OF ALL: On the first chorus of both versions, the part she sings "learning to love yourself" is clearly a different vocal take. |
Posted By: Underground Dub
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:19am
|
Old...old thread, but I just checked and have the original US CD with "Greatest Love Of All" and "How Will I Know" in their initial versions.
The center of the disc has the following text: DIDX-000489 G2 1A 01 and in very tiny text it says: IFPI L422 |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 11:53am
Right. On the 45 version she sing it smoothly, drawing it out: "Learning to looooove yourseeeeelf." On the original acoustic version she sings "Learning to luh-huv! Yourse-he-he-helf." |
elcoleccionista wrote:Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 10:48pm
|
BAD NEWS for those of us who have the Whitney CD with matrix 2/96 2DA10 ARCD8212. While this CD appears to have the 45 versions of both "How Will I Know" and "The Greatest Love Of All," "How Will I Know" is NEITHER the 45 nor LP version.
Toward the end of the song (at 4:17 to be exact), there is clearly a change of sources. I'm pretty sure it switches from the 45 version to the LP version, as the instrumentation starts to sound slightly different, as does the EQ and background vocals. WHY it changes is beyond my wildest imagination! On the 45 fadeout (which fades sooner than the CD), you can hear the background vocal "heartbeat" when Whitney is singing "ooooh how will I know." On the CD, this background vocal is absent, and again, I think it's the LP version that it switches to. The song prior to the 4:17 mark seems to match the 45, though. |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 1:18pm
| There could quite possibly be two different pressings of this 45. My dj copy is Arista 9434 with matrix number 9434-SA-re 1-sh1. The matrix number indicates a remaster so I am curious as to what the commercial 45 states on the copy you have Aaron. My dj 45 is identical to the version found on the "Whitney Houston" cd I have with matrix number ARCD-8212 2281-6X. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 2:31pm
|
I finally hear what Aaron is talking about.
The remastered LP version switches over to sparser instrumentation at the 4:17 mark. And in addition to fading slightly earlier, the 45 has a one-line difference in the background vocals: The remastered LP fadeout goes: How will I know (How will I know) How will I know How will I know (I say a prayer) How will I know, ooh How will I know (I fall in love) How will I know Hey, How will I know (I'm asking you) How will I, How will I... (END) The 45 version goes: How will I know (How will I know) How will I know How will I know (I say a prayer) How will I know, ooh (Heartbeat) How will I know (I fall in love) How will I know Hey, how will I know... (END) Both my first-remaster Whitney CD (the one with the remix of How Will I Know and the original version of Greatest Love of All) and my Japanese CD3 reissue single contain this version with the incorrect ending. Can someone check the MTV Replay and Soul Train 25th Anniversary CDs, and see if they have have the word "heartbeat" in the backing vocals at that point? Both these run a couple seconds shorter than remastered LP version. |
Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 4:38pm
The Soul Train 25th Anniversary CD does not have the "heartbeat" backing vocals on the fade. Curses, foiled again! |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 6:10pm
No kidding, Roscoe! I was listening to a copy of the song on TM's GoldDisc, and it sounded strange to me at the 4:17 mark. The bass got louder and the instrumentation changed slightly, so I could tell it was spliced. Immediately, I pulled out my original Whitney Houston CD, and it sounded the exact same way. I checked my friend's 45 copy when I was at his house, and sure enough, the 45 does NOT sound like it changes at the 4:17 mark. Also, it has that additional background vocal on the fadeout that Brian so kindly dictated above. Pat, I'll have to get back with you on the matrix number, as I don't have the 45 in my possession. I can say for sure that it is a commercial copy. In the meantime, perhaps Ed or someone else with a commercial copy could post the matrix number. Are you sure both your DJ 45 and your CD copy have the word "heartbeat" at the end (or both lack the word "heartbeat")? |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 9:36pm
| It is the lack of "heartbeat" on my dj 45 and cd. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 11:31pm
| So nobody has the MTV Replay CD? |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 6:48am
| There is no "heartbeat" vocal on the MTV Replay cd on the fadeout. |
Posted By: maciav
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 7:48am
|
Does anyone know if there is an import CD with the correct 45-version? ------------- Mike C. from PA |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 11:23am
| That's what we're trying to find out. The song hasn't been on very many CDs. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 4:03pm
|
i just did an a/b of my commercial 45 of "how will i know" issued as arista 9434......the run out groove has "ASI 9434 - SA RE - 1"....it then has what looks like "DCA" scratched out and next to that "DW2"....this 45 is identical to the version from the cd i had, and copied, many years ago, so i no longer have the cd to get the original matrix number as reference....i don't hear any word "heartbeat" at all in the faded out...can someone tell me exactly what minute it is so i can more closely listen.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 4:48pm
It should be at 4:24, Ed. It's right about where the "ooh" is. Have Aaron send you his sample. But considering that "RE-1" in the runout groove, it's sounding like we may have more than one version of the commercial 45. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 5:17pm
|
just checked it again and at the 4:24 mark of the cd version i have nor the commercial 45 i have, it DOES NOT have heartbeat in the vocals, anywhere....hope this helps.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 5:45pm
| I haven't been able to get the matrix number on the other commercial copy yet, but I'm still wondering why the heck they would've spliced the last 10 seconds of the LP version onto a perfectly fine 45 version and reissued the 45. It just doesn't make any sense. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 9:23pm
| I have now heard both Aaron's and Ed's commecial 45 copies, and there were definitely two pressings of the 45 -- one with the slightly fuller instrumentation on the fadeout and the extra "heartbeat" background vocal, and one matching the current CD album version. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 12:27am
| But just to be sure we're on the same page, Brian, the 45 with the "current CD album version" is NOT the LP version. Basically, the two 45 versions are identical up until the ending, correct? |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 12:35am
|
Well, I don't know... I don't have a full version of what's on your 45, so I can't compare the whole song.
But since the remix has been on every pressing of the album for over 20 years now, I don't think "current CD album version," or at least "remastered album version," is inappropriate. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 2:37am
|
I don't have a full version of that 45 either. I just dubbed the ending for comparison purposes. I guess what I'm concluding is that there are three versions of this song:
- The original LP version - The "remix" 45 version - The "remix" 45 version with the LP ending What I was asking is that when you referred to "current CD album version," you were referring to the "remix" with LP ending and not the "LP version." I'm just trying to clarify that none of the 45s contain the original LP version. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 4:02am
Yeah, that's what I meant. But have we determined for sure that the dubbed-in ending is in fact the original LP version's ending? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 11:08am
I guess that is also to be determined for sure, but if my memory is correct, it sounds like the LP version to me. I used to have the cassette tape with the true LP version, and I remember the fadeout lasted a little bit longer than my 45 copy. I am only speculating that this spliced on ending is from that version. I also recall that the true LP version does not start off with just drums. The keyboards come in right away, and the mix is different. |
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 2:27pm
| My US 45 is as Brian W. described, WITH the 'heartbeat'. Matrix is AS1 9434SA-1. Since the matrix number has no 'RE' and since my 45 came with a picture sleeve, this would appear to be the earlier pressing. |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 7:27pm
|
My promo 45 of "How Will I Know" has the edit to the LP mix at the end too!
Andy |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 8:05pm
|
my commercial 45 with the lp version on it has a picture sleeve as well.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 8:48pm
| I may as well jump into the quicksand here. I always bought all Billboard Hot 100 new entries the moment they appeared, in their first week on the chart. My "How Will I Know" stock deadwax is AS1-9434-SA SR1 1-1 (with the first "4" deeply and repeatedly retraced, covering an initial "3"). There is no "heartbeat" sung during the fade. My promo 45, like Pat's, has a listed time of (4:10), but mine has an actual time of (4:29), not (4:33) as Pat specifies for his DJ 45. My promo for this is one of the ONLY styrene Arista promo 45s I have ever seen, for what it's worth, and its deadwax is "AS1-9434-SA SH1 (the first "4" again retraced, covering an initial "3", but not NEARLY as forcefully done) R-15144-SH1 SLM (triangle) 111 71 1-". Oh boy...If anyone wants a dub of either of these, let me know. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 27 October 2007 at 10:19pm
I have both a stock and promo copy in front of me with the same matrix numbers, and they both do have the "heartbeat" vocal on the fadeout. The conclusion here is that all 4:29 (actual) 45s have the original 45 remix. All 4:33 (actual) 45s with the "RE" in the deadwax have the 45 remix with the LP ending spliced on. |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:50pm
A digital source for the 45 version with the "heartbeat" ending can be found on her "The Greatest Hits" DVD. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 06 March 2009 at 6:39am
| Just watched the video on YouTube. Guess what, 45 version with LP ending! |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 March 2009 at 11:59am
I've always found these types of sources to be hissy, especially on '80s-era songs. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 March 2009 at 12:00pm
Never trust YouTube to be the original source. Most likely, someone dubbed over the audio track with their CD copy. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 08 March 2009 at 9:38pm
|
<I've always found these types of sources to be hissy, especially on '80s-era songs.>
I know that can happen but I found 2 or 3 really good single mix sources by using their DVD or videotape counterparts: Air Supply - The Power of Love (from DVD) Belinda Carlisle - I Feel the Magic (from the VHS store-bought compilation of Belinda's videos!) John Hunter - Tragedy - from a VHS compilation of various videos, probably a promo thing for in-store play. I know there's a post I started for using DVD sources for single mixes unavailable elsewhere, but does anyone know any other good VHS store-bought tapes that are good sources for single mixes unavailable in the digital realm (CD/DVD)? |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 2:46pm
|
my commercial 45 issued as arista 9434 lists a run time on the label as 4:10 but actually runs 4:32 and is identical to the version from the original cd "whitney houston"....the last 0:15 of the song, starting at the 4:17 mark are the same.....BUT.....it sounds different on both the 45 AND cd versions than the rest of the song........if anyone needs this version, drop me a pm.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 10 July 2011 at 4:37pm
|
Yikes! Just ran squarely into the above three pages of posts for this song. Perhaps, even double yikes.
I bought the 45 when it was near the top of the charts. Mine came with a picture sleeve and has the "RE-1" designation in the matrix number. Printed time of 4:10, actual time of 4:32. It has the spliced-on LP version as mentioned above. The splice occurs exactly two beats before the downbeat 4:17, at the beginning of the two-beat drum fill. The RE-1 45 uses the exact fade points of the LP version, and doesn't fade early. In addition to the instrumentation change, there's a slight tempo change. My 45 starts at 119.6 BPM, drifts slightly to 119.7 BPM over the course of the song, and drops abruptly to 118.9 BPM at the splice. The original 45 runs 119.6-119.7 BPM throughout, and the original LP mix runs 118.9 BPM throughout, so it's all consistent with the splicing-in-the-LP-ending theories. The versions on The A List Disc 34 and TM Century GoldDisc 923 also have the dubbed-in LP portion with the mix and tempo changes, but they de-emphasize the transition by beginning their fade slightly before the 4:17 splice. Total run time on The A List is 4:28. Trying to figure out why this even exists at all, and can only come up with two reasons: (1) Arista wanted a later fade than the original 45 mix, but the 45 mix faded before the desired fade point. For the desired fade point, there wasn't any portion of the song available with the 45 mix, so Arista used the only mix that was available, the LP mix. Compared with the original 45 mix, the modified 45/LP mix fades about 8-12 beats later. (2) Tape damage. When the first pressings ran out and Arista had to make more stampers/mothers, something bad happened to the last ten seconds of the tape. I kinda doubt that this is the case. I had never noticed all this before, and had never played my commercial 45. (Not really a song for pleasure-listening...) Kinda fun to play a mint 45! |
Posted By: abagon
Date Posted: 11 July 2011 at 9:28am
|
The vinyl LP that I imprted from the US was unluckily the 2nd pressing LP. My US pressing LP contains (4:32) version that is the same as the 45 of the US pressing.
I feel that the 2nd pressing vinyl LP is identical to the commercial 45. My 1st pressing CD that is made in Japan released in 1985 contains (4:27) version. The (4:27) version doesn't have the first :08 drums beat found on the 45 version and the LP. However, the (4:27) version isn't an edited version of the (4:32) version. --abagon |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 6:29pm
I was digging around for a reference dub of the earlier pressing with "heartbeat" in the fade but our stock copy has the "RE" with LP ending. However I pulled a Flashback re-issue 45 AFS-9554 and that has the full remix with "heartbeat" in the fade. The deadwax on this is AFS-9554-SA-SR1. So oddly enough, this tape was still around somewhere when this was pressed in the early 90's. Only frustrating thing is the the time is different, it runs (4:25) not (4:27) as it should so it's either faded earlier or at a different speed. If i find something to compare it to I'll report back. MM |
Posted By: Ron S
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 1:33pm
Isn't the 4:25 runtime the same as the LP version? I might pick this up since I have the 45 version with the LP ending. |
Posted By: smallworld
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 5:05am
|
The full single remix (i.e. no tacked on LP ending) appears to be on the video at the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-hY-hlhBg - Whitney Houston - How Will I Know (Official Video) I presume the audio comes from the Deluxe Anniversary Edition (2010) of Houston's debut album. Has anyone ripped the audio from that DVD? Is it a lossless or lossy source? |
Posted By: thecdguy
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 11:34am
I don't know about the Audio from the DVD, but the CD itself has what I assume is the Single Version of "How Will I Know" and it's lossless. It seems strange that on the Anniversary disc, they opted to use the Single Version of "How Will I Know", but then used the original Album Version of "Greatest Love Of All", which also had a Single Version. It seems labels usually reissue Albums they way they were originally released, but that wasn't the case here. ------------- Dan In Philly |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 4:03pm
The audio doesn't come from the Deluxe Anniversary Edition of her first album. I just listened to that on Spotify... it has the first-pressing 45 version without the "heartbeat." As far as I know, the 2nd press 45 version with "heartbeat" in the background vocals on the fadeout is still M.I.A. on CD. I don't have the DVD, but if you crank up the audio on the YouTube video it's extremely hissy on the fadeout. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 4:14pm
| How many mixes of "How Will I Know" are there exactly, including European and extended versions? Can someone outline them here? It's hard to keep track! |
Posted By: smallworld
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 5:56pm
|
1) Original LP Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iciuDRPCHVo - Whitney Houston - How Will I Know (original video) 2) Single Remix http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-hY-hlhBg - Whitney Houston - How Will I Know (Official Video) 3) Single Remix w LP Ending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z_CtXKwoW4 - How Will I Know 4) Dance Mix http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyIqhIZ6PTs - Whitney Houston: "How Will I Know" (European Dance Mix - 1985) 5) Dub Mix http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C18MJscgeqY - Whitney Houston - How will I know (1985 Dub mix) 6) Dance Re-Mix http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sn4GwDz8KQ - Whitney Houston - How Will I Know (A John "Jellybean" Benitez Dance Re-Mix) 7) Instrumental http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA3Jkq4fc_s - Whitney Houston - How Will I Know (Instrumental Version - Official Audio) |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 6:38pm
|
Thanks for the info. That's a lot of versions. Even the debut "Whitney Houston" CD had 2 (or 3?) different versions depending on when you bought the CD. I have 2 of them. I bought the 2nd version to get the "acoustic piano" mix of "Greatest Love" in addition to the "electric piano" mix. Only early versions had the acousti mix. I was pleasantly surprised to get a different version of "How Will I Know" as well. I guess the early printings had the album versions; and the later pressings had the single versions. There may have even been an "in between" period where they added the single mix for the 3rd single ("How Will I Know") but not yet the following single ("Greatest") - which would possibly mean 3 different CDs a person might get. But is there also a version from way back then that had the "single remix with the LP version" or was that just on a CD single, etc.?
I didn't realize there was a single remix w/ LP ending. Where does the switch occur? And was this ever on a proper Whitney CD? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 07 February 2021 at 10:19pm
|
Yes, it's the first issued 45 version that's not on CD to my knowledge. The single remix w/LP ending is what commonly appears on CD, and this was issued originally on 45s with the "RE" in the deadwax. The switch occurs at 4:17. You can hear the instrumentation change, as well as an increase in bass (EQ). ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 5:17am
Oh, is it? I'm so confused. I thought the single remix with LP ending is what was NOT on CD. My mistake. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 7:49am
|
Yes, my copy of the Whitney Houston CD has the single remix with the LP version ending tacked on. I've never found a disc that has the full single mix, but perhaps there is one I don't know about. I had to take the ending from vinyl. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 8:06am
|
To help clear up any confusion:
1) The original LP version and mix starts with the keyboard melody right from the beginning. At 4:18 of this version, when Whitney ad-libs "oooh" there are NO background vocals. 2) The first issued 45 version, which does not have "RE" in the deadwax, is a remix that opens with just drum beats. The keyboard melody comes in at 0:08. At 4:24, this is the spot where Whitney ad-libs "oooh," and at the same time, the background singers sing the word "heartbeat." To my knowledge, this version is still MIA on CD. 3) The second issued 45 version, which has "RE" in the deadwax, matches the first 45 version up to 4:17. At this point, it switches to the LP version for the rest of the song. It's a fairly obvious change in EQ, which is the giveaway for me. Because it switches to the LP mix, you no longer hear the backup singers sing the word "heartbeat" when Whitney sings the "oooh," which occurs on this version at 4:24. This version is on my copy of the self-titled CD, and it's the only 45 version that I'm aware of on CD. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 9:12am
|
One more thing, Ron has these two versions in his library labeled as "hit 45" and "non-hit 45," but is there really a "non-hit" 45 version? I had the non-RE 45 (first pressing) as a kid, and I'm sure I didn't buy it until the song was well into its chart run. It would seem that both the non-RE and the RE 45s were pressed during the song's chart run, which would make them both hit versions. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 10:39am
|
Aaron - I picked the "hit"/"non-hit" notation based only on a hunch, and a convenient way to tell the two versions apart. My logic was that if the original version was doing just fine, there would have been no need to release a second version. That's pure conjecture on my part, though.
I'd be interested to learn when the second (RE-1) version was released. I picked up my copy in the New York City suburbs as the song was entering the top 5 nationally. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: smallworld
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 12:07pm
|
"The #1 Video Hits" (1986) might be a digital source for the single remix, provided it was used on the laserdisc release.
http://www.discogs.com/Whitney-Houston-The-1-Video-Hits/release/10954450 - Whitney Houston – The #1 Video Hits |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 2:58pm
|
I don't have that 4-song comp on Laserdisc or VHS but I do have Whitney's "Greatest Hits" DVD with 30 music videos. Wouldn't that have the same music video (including audio) as what's on this 4-song Laserdisc of the videos from her 1st album?
So maybe it's there digitally. I'll have to pull out the DVD, but first I have to get familiar with what happens on the audio after 4:17. Aaron provides a good explanation of what's going on in these different versions, so that will be very helpful. Incidentally, I've pulled songs from commercially available VHS tapes (when the single mix was only available there, and on vinyl records), and I've found the files often to be lossless. In fact, for Belinda Carlisle's "I Feel the Magic" (single mix) - which has never been released on CD (not even her CD singles boxed set), I pulled it from a commercially available VHS tape years ago. Then when the music video eventually came out on a DVD, I pulled it from there, only to find it went to higher frequencies (in the spectral view) on the VHS tape! So while VHS may not be "digital", it can be a good a source (or better) than a DVD for getting a single mix that doesn't come from vinyl. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 3:29pm
That logic doesn't quite make sense to me. If the song "wasn't doing well," how would it make any difference to change the last 15 seconds as it's fading out? Everything else up to that point is identical between the two versions, and most people would not have noticed the difference between the two endings. I actually think your tape damage theory is far more likely. I'd guess that the song was doing much better than expected, and there was a need to press more singles. Perhaps when threading the master tape on the machine, the engineer physically damaged it. (A lot of reel tapes are stored "tails out," meaning the ending of the song is on the outside, and it has to be rewound before playing.) All we can do is speculate at this point, but I can't see why the record company would bother to change the fade out when the song was riding high on the charts. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 3:53pm
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Yeah, I'm stumped too. (If there really was tape damage for the first 45 version, then that would explain why it's never appeared anywhere, ever, after the first 45 pressing. Still more speculation.)
We'll just file this in the same category as all the Quincy Jones-produced singles that had multiple releases. I'll change "hit"/"non-hit" to "first" and "second" in my library. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: thecdguy
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 4:48pm
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To add on to the list of versions of the song that smallworld mentioned, there is also an "Edited Remix" that was on the B-Side of
the "Love Will Save The Day" single in 1988. As far as I know, its only CD appearance is on a 3" CD Single from Japan. I think it's an edited version of the longer Dance Re-Mix from John "Jellybean" Benitez. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3fAAVct-9Y - How Will I Know (Edited Remix) ------------- Dan In Philly |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 08 February 2021 at 7:41pm
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And this just got even more confusing. I pulled out all 3 CDs of Whitney's first album that I have - compared them to each other and to the video links provided above. The differences in "How Will I Know" have to do with hearing (or not) the word "heartbeat" under Whitney's singing "Ooooh" near the end of the song. That's really all I was focusing on, other than the obvious different intros.
The 1st pressing (deadwax says ARCD-8212 2A8 61) has: How Will I Know - 1st mix starting with keyboard riff (not drums-only) but no word "heartbeat" under "ooh". (4:18) I really blasted the fade loudly under headphones and can't hear the word. Greatest Love - acoustic piano The 2nd pressing (deadwax says ARCD-8212 20A1 66) has: How Will I Know - single mix starting with drums - has no "heartbeat" under "ooooh" (4:25) (Again, I really blasted the fade loudly under headphones and can't hear the word.) Deluxe 25th Anniversary Edition Greatest Love - acoustic piano (like original pressing) How Will I Know - single mix starting with drums - has no "heartbeat" under "ooooh" (4:24) Greatest Love - elec piano Now, at first I thought: I'm either going crazy or deaf (although they're not mutually exclusive). But I listened to the 2nd music video (official) that was linked to above in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-hY-hlhBg -and I clearly hear "heartbeat" loud as day in that (under Whitney's lead "ooh"). But when I listened to the original video that starts with keyboard riff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iciuDRPCHVo I don't think I hear the "heartbeat" at 4:17 - if I do, it's barely, barely there - but it's definitely not anywhere near as present as it is in the popular video with the single mix. (But I really don't think I hear the word there.) So is it possible that I have the 'full length single mix' that no one has been able to find on CD? I could share the WAVs with an audiophile who can easily hear the differences. (Since Aaron brought up the detailed differences, I'm thinking you might be able to decipher everything.) UPDATE: I just listened to the links on page 3 described as: 1) Original LP Version 2) Single Remix 3) Single Remix w LP Ending I think I'm BARELY hearing "heartbeat" on (1) - which MAY be consistent with my CDs. But I'm hearing "heartbreat" really loud and present on 3 (single mix w/ LP ending") - even on my rinky dink computer speakers now. So I'd almost say this mix called "(single mix w/ LP ending") isn't really the "LP ending" but a louder "heartbeat" than the LP mix! I'll be curious to see/hear the audophiles' thoughts on all this. |
Posted By: BSharp
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:10am
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This is one of the most interesting threads I've read
in this group. Seriously, you guys are awesome. Funny thing: I went and listened to my copy of this, a rip from the "Whitney Houston" CD; I bought it used and it's got the original LP version of "How Will I Know". I was kind of disappointed to find this out after reading this discussion, because I much prefer the the single remix version with the drum intro. I then went and pulled my original vinyl LP of this... and it gets weirder (I bought this copy new in 1985). It's got the acoustic piano intro version of "The Greatest Love Of All" and the Single Remix w/ LP ending of "How Will I Know". My LP doesn't even have the LP version! The runout on my LP says AL8-8212-SB10. Oddly enough, I can't any info about this variation on Discogs. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:11am
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The mix where you can hear "heartbeat" sung loudly and clearly is the full single remix (version #2 from your above list). This is the one that is not on CD.
The one that has no "heartbeat" is version #3 (single remix w/LP ending), which is consistent with your findings as it appears on the 2nd pressing and 25th anniversary issue of the full-length CD. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Underground Dub
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 9:52am
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My theory as to why the spliced version exists is that it was created for the parent Whitney Houston album.
Once it became a hit, the label updated the mix of "How Will I Know" on the album. Someone noticed the end was shorter and spliced the original longer ending onto the single remix to create this updated album master - which then wound up on later pressings of the single either by mistake or due to the judgement of someone who would have made those decisions at Arista. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 2:17pm
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OK, Aaron, I think I was getting lost in my minutiae of studying the versions.
BTW, when I first read the comment "single mix with LP ending", I didn't know where they did the splice until listening - and realized it was just 7 seconds before the song's end WHILE the song was in fade-out mode. I don't think it was done for creative/artistic purposes or to increase the chances for the song become a hit. It's just SO LATE and during a fade :) The only reason I can think of is a reason proposed: The single remix master tape got destroyed during this end part of the song. The last theory given above (someone spliced the original ending onto the single remix to create a longer version on the CD album) - at first I thought, that's a good a reason as any. But then I thought, does that really extend it at all - both versions (from "Ooooh" to the end of the song) are about 7 seconds. So it wouldn't make it any longer. It's not like it would change the splice point from having 7 seconds coming after it to 14 seconds after it. Right? Or am I missing something in this theory? This is definitely one of the more interesting, in-depth, in-the-trenches thread on the forum :) I also wonder - I know this was released near the end of 1985, but wouldn't at least one country have released the single in CD format at that point? The single remix would be preserved there, even if Arista/US got their single master tape destroyed at the end. And therefore, if there's at least one country that released this single in CD format, we can find it (I suppose). Or were no singles coming out on CD either commercially or promo-wise in November 1985? |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 3:10pm
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BTW, Aaron, how did you even first notice that "heartbeat" was missing under the "ooh" during the fade out? Did you listen and think "where's the 'heartbeat'? If so, you have superhumean hearing, my friend! Or did you notice the change in EQ there (I hadn't noticed that at all, TBH) and that made you explore what was going on? Or did you happen to do that thing where you cancel out 2 versions to see what's left (and different) about one of the mixes - and that brought it to your attention?
BTW, since my 25th deluxe edition has the hit-version video (with single remix) on DVD, I'm thinking of transferring the song to a CD-R this afternoon to have a WAV, if anyone wants it. It goes through analog to record, but I *think* it will still be lossless and a better source to substitute than the vinyl that someone else used to plug in the ending. If anyone else has the deluxe edition - or Whitney's "Greatest Hits" containing 30 songs on DVD - and has the ability do a digital transfer from DVD to WAV (which I can't), that would truly be a digital transfer, not going through an analog transfer. Just a suggestion. But I'll do what I can at least :) |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 6:49pm
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Things couldn't get any weirder with these "How Will Know" single vs. album mixes, right? Well it turns out ... wrong!
So I just transferred the music video of "How Will I Know" on the DVD portion of the 25th anniversary deluxe edition to a WAV (and btw, good news ... it was lossless. The graph went all the way up to the top of the spectral view. So say what you will about analog transfers but as long as they're lossless, I'm ok with that.) Anyway, it's definitely the same (2nd) video that starts with only the drumbeats and has her walking through colorful hallways. But the audio on THIS video in the DVD collection has no "heartbeat" behind the "Oooh" near the end of the song!!! That means they made a video of the single mix with the "heartbeat" (as we've seen on YouTube). Then later (or simultaneously) they used they same video (visual component) and dubbed in a slightly different version with an ending that doesn't have "heartbeat" under the wooh. Mind you now, this is still the single mix that starts with drums. Why bother to have a 2nd version of the "hallway" video with the slightly different altered audio at the end??? We theorized they did this on the CD because the audio master (of the single mix) was destroyed by the time they got around to pressing a new version of the CD with the single mix of "How Will I Know". But they already had a perfectly fine video that had the "heartbeat" overdub created. Why spend more time and money to replace the audio in that video (which had audio that was not defective in the trailout)? This makes no sense - and also makes me think the theory of why this "single with LP end" version was used for CD. Does anyone know if the 45 actually had "heartbeat"? And can anyone explain why there would be a 3rd version of the video? I get the 1st one was for the album mix and not very flashy. Then the 2nd one was made for the single remix - and a huge step up visual-wise, like I said with the walking through colorful hallways. (The 1st video was kind of boring to watch, though I still like it). But this 3rd video? To change the audio ever so slightly??? I'm really at a loss, guys. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:11pm
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Gordon, the splice occurs exactly at 4:16 just before the drum fill. Tacking the LP ending on makes the song run 4:32. The original single mix completely fades out by 4:30. So, you're right. There's virtually nothing "extended" about the ending.
At the 4:16 mark of the 2nd 45 version, the EQ and instrumentation changes enough to where I immediately picked up on it. Perhaps the reason I was listening carefully was because I originally noticed it on a TM GoldDisc. Knowing that they often took things from vinyl, added noise reduction, etc., I was probably scrutinizing their copy. I certainly didn't remember the "heartbeat" background vocal was missing; that's something I discovered when A/B-ing the ending with the original single mix ending. As for your DVD collection, I'd be willing to bet money that the engineer replaced the audio of the original video to enhance the sound quality. Record labels have done that many times over the years, as it seems video master tapes tend to have hissy audio. My guess is that there was only one "hallway" video ever originally made, and it has the first single mix. As for the "heartbeat" version, I have several copies--both promo and stock--and most (all?) of them have the original single mix with no RE in the matrix. In fact, when I restored the ending on my file, I had six different sources to work with, and all of them had the original single mix ending. The only reason I even knew there was a second issued "RE" version was from this thread. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:35pm
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That makes sense that they upgraded the "hallway" video's audio for the DVD, released decades later, to have less hissy sound quality. I hadn't thought of that. I also have Whitney's "Greatest Hits" DVD with 30 songs - I bet it has the same audio upgrade. BUT, I checked and I also have the VHS commercially released tape called the "#1 Video Hits", containing a total of 4 videos. The main hit singles from the 1st album. I bet if I pulled that out, it would have the "heartbeat" - because it wasn't released decades later. And it would be from a non-vinyl source. Like I said, I used the VHS commercially available tape of a Belinda Carlisle collection where they used the single remix for "I Feel the Magic" (follow-up to "Mad About You"). It was the only place at the time to get the much-improved single mix from a tape source and not vinyl. And also like I said, years later that music video was re-released on DVD but didn't sound as good.
On a similar note, when I upgraded Carly Simon's "Martha's Vineyard" concert from VHS to DVD, I found the DVD to be much inferior soundwise to the VHS. |
Posted By: NightAire
Date Posted: 09 February 2021 at 10:11pm
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To make sure I understand:
There were two singles released, one the full remix and the other the remix with the LP version tacked on for the last seven (EDIT: fifteen) seconds. At this point we're considering both of these "hit" mixes since they seem to have both been out while the single was climbing. These same two versions were released as promos to radio stations, first the full remix and then the remix with the LP version tacked on the last seven (EDIT: fifteen) seconds. Both could easily be considered the "hit radio version" depending on when a particular station picked up the song. If a radio station switches to another song before the last seven (EDIT: fifteen) seconds, there is no difference to be heard between the two promos. The version with the tacked on LP ending is available many places digitally, while we have yet to find the full single remix without edit on CD. Does that sum it up accurately? ------------- Gene Savage http://www.BlackLightRadio.com - http://www.BlackLightRadio.com http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage - http://www.facebook.com/TulsaSavage Tulsa, Oklahoma USA |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 7:31am
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Technically, Gene, it's the last ~15 seconds, but everything else is right. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 7:44am
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My promo copy is the RE-1 version.
Can anyone confirm that they have a promo that is the non-RE-1 version? I'm wondering if radio stations got two versions (and how many days/weeks apart)! Does anyone in radio have any remembrance? Andy |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 8:16am
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I definitely have promo copies without the RE, pressed on nice quality vinyl. As a kid, my stock copy was on styrene, but I think I may currently have both vinyl and styrene stock copies without the RE. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 9:18am
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Thanks Aaron.
If promo copies were issued with both endings, my only logical conjecture is that some programmers out there didn't like how the original single mix dumped-out prematurely and wanted the slightly extended album ending. By the way, does anybody out there know who mixed the single? Was it Jellybean Benitez? I ask because the single uses production elements of the Jellybean 12" remix, but he wasn't credited on the 45 (Michael Barbiero was credited on the LP). Andy |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 11:03am
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Again, I highly doubt programmers were clamoring for a few extra seconds of audio. As Gordon already pointed out, the new ending doesn't really extend the song at all. The difference in length is 4:30 vs. 4:32.
I think the real reason both versions were pressed on promos is because radio needed new copies when the "old" ones were wearing out. This happened regularly, as I understand it, because some stations played vinyl directly and not carts. 45s got cue burnt and worn. By the time additional promo copies were needed, perhaps the original single master had already been doctored for reasons still unknown. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 6:08pm
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Yes, Aaron, I forgot that the labels would sometimes
reservice a hot record to replace cue-burnt copies! I figured by then just about all stations would cart up the tracks, but you're right, I'm sure a measure of stations (especially in smaller markets) played vinyl directly. Andy |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 8:48am
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It's anyone's guess, Andy, but I think if the intent was to send a "new version" to programmers, it would've been called out as such on the record label. In this case, the change was subtle and not noted at all, other than the tiny "RE" in the matrix. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: TimNeely
Date Posted: 12 February 2021 at 5:24pm
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To add another data point, I checked my
own 45, which I bought either shortly before or shortly after it entered the top 20 on Billboard. The trail-off on mine is AS1-9434-SA-1, followed by the word STERLING stamped, and then followed by the crossed-out number AS1-9334-SA- RCA1. My copy is styrene, pressed at RCA Indianapolis. It plays the original 45 remix with the "heartbeat." |