michael jackson 2 cd essential
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Topic: michael jackson 2 cd essential
Posted By: edtop40
Subject: michael jackson 2 cd essential
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 11:29am
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has anyone picked up the cd yet and checked the versions versus the 45's??? ------------- edtop40 |
Replies:
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 12:35pm
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I'm about to go pick it up... but I just rolled out of bed. (Work night shift.) Hard to get excited when you're still working on your first cup of coffee...
But I'm confident Pat's review is accuate. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:13pm
| Actually, I just picked up my copy, and they BUTCHERED IT!!! More to come in a few minutes, as I'm still reviewing... |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:16pm
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DISC 1:
"Rock With You" - correct 45 version/edit "Off The Wall" - edit of LP version; not the 45 remix "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" - edit of LP version, but edits are in the correct places; not the 45 version "Human Nature" - edit of LP version; not the 45 version |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:26pm
| You ARE FRIGGING KIDDING ME!!! |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:30pm
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DISC 2:
"The Way You Make Me Feel" - sounds like the correct 45 edit/mix "Another Part Of Me" - 45 version; they got this one right "Smooth Criminal" - as Pat pointed out, this is the LP version "Black Or White" - 45 version "In The Closet" - 45 version, as far as I can tell "Who Is It" - 45 version, as far as I can tell "Will You Be There" - 3:39 edit; 45 version |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:31pm
| And no, I'm not kidding... They ****** us again! |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 2:54pm
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I just picked it up as well (after three stops -- Best Buy and Circuit City aren't even carrying it), and Aaron is right -- they simply did their own edits of the LP Versions of Human Nature, Wanna Be Startin' Somethin', and Off the Wall. C***suckers!!!!
On the plus side, yeah, those versions Aaron mentioned do seem to be the true 45 versions -- In the Closet, Who Is it, Will You Be There, Another Part of Me. I don't know what to think except that maybe they couldn't find the single masters, or that they were so STUPID they thought they'd improve the sound quality by making their own digital edits from the first-gen album mixes. But this "project director" Joy Gilbert Monfried and mastering engineer Joseph M. Palmaccio are about to get angry letters from me... |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 3:55pm
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i'm doing a/b's tonite of the cd versions versus the 45s........if they are as everyone here states, meaning not being the 45 versions........why don't we get a letter together with all the members and tell the producers what a bad job they did....... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 4:22pm
| Amen to that, Ed. And tell them how many copies they DIDN'T sell because of this... because I just posted this info on the Steve Hoffman web site, and several people said, "Thanks for the heads up... I was going to buy it, and now I'm not." |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 4:54pm
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i just started doing a/b's tonite of the esential michael jackson cd and found my first problem
smooth criminal IS NOT the same as the 45 version.........the 45 version has heavy breathing at the start of the record which these ***hole producers edited out..........BUT.........the version from the cd "bad" IS the 45 version (with the heavy breathing) but it fades out to the 4:10 mark while the "bad" cd version runs to 4:17...be back with more..... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:09pm
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ok....they got one right
the cd version of dirty diana is identical to the 45 and runs 4:40 ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:15pm
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ok...2 right
"another part of me" is identical to the 45.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:26pm
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2 wrong.....
man in the mirror is the cd/lp version running 5:17 while the 45 version is an edit which runs 5:02....... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:36pm
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3 right
"the way you make me feel" is the correct 45 version ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:41pm
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4 right
"bad" is the corerect 45 version... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:46pm
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the song "i just can't stop loving you" is NOT the 45 version with the spoken intro.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:10pm
| Intersting catch on "Smooth Criminal." I hadn't noticed the heavy breathing is missing from the beginning. But it's still not the 45 mix. So I guess this can qualify as "neither the 45 or LP version." |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:22pm
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okay.............you'll love this one.......the song "human nature" on the 45 runs 3:45 and is ALMOST the same as the essential cd.....BUT.........at the 1:57 mark the 45 has a different bridge than the cd version.......what is also weird is that the 45 face says the run time is 4:05 but really runs 3:45.........i checked the 45 vers vrs the cd "bad" and the bridge is also different but that version runs 4:06.........anyone with any info on this one??? ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:31pm
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"wanna be startin' somethin'" sounds like the 45 version to me.... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:35pm
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"beat it" runs 4:17 on essential while the 45 runs 4:11 and is just an early fade of the cd version..... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:07pm
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can you guys PLEASE tell me where the differences are on the lp edits versus 45 versions comments.........they sound good to me..... ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:50pm
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Man, this IS highly disappointing to hear we got gypped on several of the 45 versions. I'm glad I held off buying it long enough to read this thread. If the producers couldn't include the singles masters on this compilation, then it makes me wonder if we'll ever see the 45 mixes of "Off the Wall", "Wanna Be Startin' Something", and "Human Nature" on a U.S. CD release.
Actually, Ed's question about "Wanna Be Startin' Something" is making me hold out at least some hope for that song. Can anyone explain what differences they perceive between the version on the Essential CD and the LP version? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 10:41pm
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If you A/B "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" on Essential and from the 45, you'll never hear the difference, because the edit points are correct and the mix is pretty much the same. However, if you cue in to around 1:10 on Essential, right at the lyric "Billie Jean is always talking," you can hear where they edited the LP version---there is a sound effect that overlaps the lyrics at this point; plus, the horns and synthesizer chop off abrubtly.
On the 45, the reverb from the horns and the synthesizer note overlaps the vocal part, and you can't hear the sound effect. So they must have remixed the single, rather than just making an edit for the 45. This is a very subtle difference, but still, if they were going to put the "45 version" on the disc, why on earth did they re-edit the LP version instead of just pulling the 45 master tape? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 10:48pm
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edtop40, as you noticed with "Human Nature," the 45 version has the extra overdub at the bridge with a synthesizer added in. On Essential, they matched the edits of the 45, but they used the LP version which does not have the overdub...hence the reason I was calling this an edit of the LP version. (By the way, in Brian's post of all the MJ 45 versions, he does note that the label time is incorrectly listed as 4:05.)
The same thing goes for "Off The Wall." They just matched the edits of the 45, but used the LP version. The 45 is mixed with some added reverb/delay on the vocals (and perhaps some other differences I can't recall at the moment) and it's not the same one used on the album. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 11:30pm
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Yes, the 45 of Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' is actually a different MIX than the album version. Note on the 45 the much louder "OOH" right before he starts into the song, and the much louder spoken "You're a vegetable" in the right ear during the bridge -- it really jumps out at you. Also, the piano during "Mama say mama sa ma ma cu sa" is mixed louder, and there is ECHO on that piano, as well as on Michael's vocal on "I know I am someone, and let the truth unfurl, no one can hurt you now..." that is NOT present on the album version. These are not simple EQ differences.
And you can hear the bad edit point on the version on "Essential" right at "Billie Jean is always talkin'" -- there's the tail end of an instrument... sounds like monkey going, "Ooh ooh ooh"... that is present on the instrumental break at that point on the LP. But that little remnant of it is totally gone in the 45 version. The 45 mix of "Off the Wall" has the guitar track mixed much louder, almost as loud as Michael's vocal, and there is extra echo on Michael's vocal that is not present on the LP. In addition, the handclaps are completely centered on the 45 mix, while on the LP version it's like there's a separate handclap in each ear. As Aaron pointed out, "Human Nature" is different only on the instrumental break... a different instrument is dubbed in there, sort a synthesizer "flute" sound. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 11:37pm
I'll be damned, Ed! I had no idea Beat It ran shorter on the 45. Never even checked. Hmm, there was a Japanese CD3 of Billie Jean/Beat It... Also a US CD3... wonder how long it ran on those... |
edtop40 wrote:Posted By: 80smusicfreak
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 7:45am
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Okay, so yesterday (Tuesday) I, too, broke down and
bought the new 2-CD "Essential MJ" collection, partly due to what I'd been reading here on this message board over the last few weeks (but before this whole new thread by edtop40 went up)... For starters, just let me say that you guys are certainly doing an amazing job of dissecting this one - keep up the good work! :-) However, it seems that no one has yet to mention one other error/problem w/ this collection, at least on the copy I bought: On another thread, there was a debate about whether or not the U.S. edition would include the Jacksons' 1981 hit, "Can You Feel It" (always a personal fave of mine). So I found the new collection at my local Best Buy, and sure enough, the song was listed on the back insert as track #14 on CD 1. But then I noticed something strange - the yellow promo sticker on the front of the plastic jewel case stated, among other things, "37 TRACKS ON 2 CDs!" Yet the back insert listed 21 tracks on CD 1 and 17 on CD 2, and that of course does not equal 37 - and I immediately knew the conflict must have had something to do w/ "Can You Feel It"... Nevertheless, I went ahead and bought it anyway, and when I removed the shrink-wrap after getting home, I discovered that "Can You Feel It" was NOT listed on the CD (Disc 1) itself - it shows only 20 tracks (along w/ their individual timings)! At that point, I had given up hope that the song was included... But lo & behold, when I played Disc 1, I was relieved to discover that "Can You Feel It" is indeed on there, and yes, it's track #14, just as the back insert states. (Pat's review from last week indicates that his copy - an advance promo, I assume - has the song tacked on to the very end of Disc 1, w/ a running time of 3:41; it clocks in at 3:49 on my copy. Yet another difference???) So does anybody else's copy of "The Essential MJ" omit "Can You Feel It" from the track listing on the CD itself, and/or have the erroneous sticker stating that the collection features only "37 tracks"??? It appears the song must've been a last-minute inclusion, and probably explains why the original street date was bumped to July 19... |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 9:05am
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It sounds to me like "Wanna Be Startin' Something" could be best described with a comment like: (edit of the LP version that closely resembles the 45 version but is not the 45 version).
"Off the Wall" and "Human Nature" both probably qualify for the following comment which Pat occasionally uses: (edit of the LP version in an unsuccessful attempt at recreating the 45 version). |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:51am
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Todd writes: <If the producers couldn't include the singles masters on this compilation, then it makes me wonder if we'll ever see the 45 mixes of ...>
This makes me wonder if his single master tapes were lost or destroyed. Let's face it -- doing all these edits on all these songs to "approximate" the single versions is a LOT more time consuming (and expensive) than pulling the singles tapes from the vaults when you're pulling the album tapes! I know sometimes album versions or alternate versions are accidentally used, but clearly in this case the producers of this project were attempting to include single versions, and since they didn't use the true single versions, I wonder what the story is here -- does anyone know if Sony lost or trashed the tapes? |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 1:06pm
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Well, I'm going to find out... I just sent a letter to the producer and the mastering engineer today... We know they had tapes in Japan in the late '80s...
I'm still an toying with the idea of buying the import versions of this, especially the Japanese, to see if they could possibly have used the real versions. It DOES happen sometimes... For example, the UK edition of Very Best of the Jacksons contiains almost all single edits of their Epic hits. (Did you guys know that? I've been meaning to post that.) But the Australia/New Zealand version, which has exactly the same cover and exactly the same track listing, uses the album versions for the most part. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 3:48am
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Okay, I've done some A/B comparisons for some of the "Essential" tracks now with the original CD singles.
Who is It, Another Part of Me, and In the Closet are all the exact 45 versions. I A/Bd the wave files for all of them with the promo CD singles. But I noticed something strange about "Way You Make Me Feel." It was getting out of sync quite quickly with the the original US CD single. Then I noticed another very slight difference, and realized that "Way You Make Me Feel" on "Essential" is NOT the exact 45 version. They again "recreated" it... I think from the mix on "HiStory," which I'd always thought was simply a longer version of the 45 mix. Not so... on the line, "Ah cha ooh" at around 2:05, right before the instrumental break, there is a FINGER SNAP type sound on the word, "Ooh" on the original single, but it's NOT THERE on "Essential." And the snap is also missing from the "HiStory" album remix. So appears they just edited that down to match the 45 length. In addition, right at the fadeout at 4:25, "Essential" dubs in another part of the song... "Give me some time..." You'd never be able to hear that normally, but try listening through headphones with the volume way up. You can hear the bad edit at the tail end of the fadeout, which is NOT present on the 45. So "Way You Make Me Feel" is yet another "recreated" 45 version here for some mysterious reason. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 9:23am
Actually, as Brian points out in the "Michael Jackson 45 versions on CD" thread, the 45 of "Smooth Criminal" is a shortened version of the Dance Mix. If you listen carefully, the drum beat has more "punch" on the 45, and right before the first verse starts, for example, there's some extra drums that aren't on the LP version. Also, I believe the 45 is pitched up quite a bit, when compared to the LP version. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:42pm
| Pat, Aaron and I noticed that you have "Can You Feel It" listed as the last track on disc one in your review, when it's track 14 on the commercial CD... also that you haven't altered your review or chimed in on any of this... Any possibility that you received a different pressing that used the correct single versions??? |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 3:37pm
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No I will alter the review this weekend as I have been out of town and trying to apply the cattle prod to my contract labor to get the electronic version of Top 40 Music On Compact Disc up and running. I do appreciate the input from the contributors that will be reflected in the new edition.
I am sure that I have the same cd that is being commercially sold. The reason I listed "Can You Feel It" last was that since it was not a top 40 hit, I failed to enter it in my handwritten notes and caught the deletion when I counted the tracks to be sure I reported the correct number of tracks and at that point simply entered the track after my previously entered data. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 12:15am
Update: I actually do have this version on my old UK Michael Jackson Tour Souvenir Pack CD set, but it plays a hair slower than my 45, which runs just barely 4:12... the one on Tour Souvenir Pack runs 4:14, but it fades out at the same point. Hardly a difference between it and the album version though... it fades right on the final "whoo hoo," ending on "Just beat it (beat it)..." The final five (barely audible) seconds of the album version are omitted: "...beat it (beat it), no one wants to be deafeated..." |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 8:11am
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For anyone who has a copy of Essential...
Is "In the Closet" the only 45 version on this 2-CD set that's not an edit of the LP version? In other words, I'm wondering if nothing but LP version masters were used for this compilation other than the one exception? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 9:22am
| No, "Another Part Of Me" is not an edit of the LP version---it's a remix. "Black Or White" is slightly different than the LP version right at the beginning. Supposedly, the version of "Dirty Diana" is a remix, but I've never compared the LP version with the one on Number Ones or Essential. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 9:53am
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The true 45 edits/mixes on "Essential" are:
Don't Stop Till You Get Enough (actually, they just faded this one to match the 45 length, but they did a really good job) Rock With You Another Part of Me In the Closet Dirty Diana Black or White You Are Not Alone Who Is It Will You Be There |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 2:50pm
| I have a question about "The Way You Make Me Feel." On the Bad cd, does this include the same mix as the 45 version, but just longer. There's been so much typed on this subject, I can't keep it all straight. I seem to recall someone saying that the same thing happended with this track as "Rock With You." They replaced the original mix with the "remix" used for the 45, but it is the unedited remix on the Bad cd. Is that correct? |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 3:06pm
Nooooooo.... say it ain't so! :D A remix ALMOST matching the 45, but the length of the original LP version, was used for "HiStory." According to the 10th Edition of the book, this was used on the remastered "Bad Special Edition" as well as on "Number Ones." I hadn't noticed there was a slight difference until I A/B'd them with the true 45 version just the other day. The original edition of "Bad," even the ones where the spoken intro to "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" was already removed, should contain the original mix, which has Michael's vocal much farther back in the mix and the background vocals way up front. It also runs a hair slower and has no lead vocal on the fadeout. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 4:29pm
Regarding Brian's comments on "The Way You Make Me Feel"...
I had to pull out my copy of Bad and Number Ones to check for myself, and what Brian describes above as the version on History is the exact same thing I have on my non-"special edition" version of the Bad cd and Number Ones. There is no finger snap over the "ooh."
Although there is no bad edit on my Bad cd and Number Ones cd, this is the version I have on those discs. It has the lines "give it to me / give me some time" whereas the 45 version does not. So, unless someone can supply other evidence, I'd say the the version on History, Bad, Bad-Special Edition, and Number Ones all have the LP version. The edited version on Essential, therefore, is an edit of the LP version. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 6:40pm
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But it's not an edit of the ORIGINAL LP version. "Way You Make Me Feel" must have been replaced on "Bad" before the Special Edition was done. My original-original CD of "Bad," the one with the spoken intro on "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" and the original mix of "Dirty Diana" contains a completely different mix of "Way You Make Me Feel," where he does not sing "give it to me, give me some time" during the fadeout.
Did you buy your non-special-edition "Bad" CD before HiStory came out? Regarding the bad edit, I'm literally talking about the last second or two of the song, right before it fades out completely. And the 45 version DOES have "give it to me, give me some time" on the fadeout... apparently only on the early pressings of the "Bad" album is that absent. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 8:56pm
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You know this would be far less of a headache if they could have just given us ONE friggin' mix of the song, with an edited version on the single. If you're not done mixing the album the way you want it, DON'T RELEASE IT YET! For cripes sake...
OK, now, I most likely purchased my copy of "Bad" after "History" was released. It was somewhere around 1995 or 1996 when I bought the CD, but I can't say for sure. The version I have on my TM Century library, which I always thought was the 45 version, is apparently an edit of the ORIGINAL LP version. You know, at this point, I don't even care, because all the mixes sound about the same anyhow. A finger snap here, a "woo hoo" there...the vocals are mixed a little louder...this is just frustrating the hell out of me. |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 12:24pm
| Brian, did you get a response to the letter you sent to the producer and mastering engineer? |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 12:33pm
|
Actually, I did get a phone call from the mastering engineer. He wanted to know if I'd gotten a response to my letter, because he thought it deserved a response, and I told him no, I hadn't.
He did tell me he didn't know who had done the new edits of the songs -- that he was simply handed the tapes and told to master them. He wasn't involved in the source selection at all. He said that anything involving Michael Jackson goes through several levels of approval before it's released. But he said he had forwarded my letter to Sony's A&R department, telling them there were "mix issues" with the MJ "Essential" release. He also told me that when Sony remasters something, generally they always use that same tape in the future -- a tape is marked that it is the tape to use for CD reissues. |
Posted By: elcoleccionista
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 1:39pm
| Interesting, thanks. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 5:54pm
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sounds like they've got a bunch of bone-heads running the show!!! ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 28 July 2011 at 1:22am
| Pat, you may want to take a new look at this CD. This older, detailed thread preceded my involvement here on the Board, so I'd never seen any of it before. I recently purchased "The Essential", because the db said it contained the (5:51) stock 45 length of "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough." However, my copy contains the under-4:00 DJ 45 version. My copy is a U.S. issue, with a 2005 date on the back. While comparing my CD's inventory # against what Pat's db shows, it has "Epic/Legacy 94287" listed, whereas mine states "Epic/Legacy 5204222000". Due to all the heavy, warranted criticisms leveled at this package when first released, Brian's label communications, as well as my above-mentioned different-timing discovery, is it possible that Epic went back and re-did this? If so, maybe the results/mixes are now more faithful to the originals? We can only hope... |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 28 July 2011 at 4:51am
| Jim, that catalog number you report is not a domestic catalog number for Epic. To verify I went to CD Connection and they list this as a European import. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 28 July 2011 at 5:52pm
|
Thanks for your efforts, Pat. Usually, the different-looking European UPC
symbol jumps right out at you; this 100% looks to be the familiar U.S. UPC symbol. Both my initial and re-examination of the disc finds no reference made, to either the E.U. or any other European country. However, buried deep in the microscopic credits, my magnifying glass did just find two "import" clues. It spells "unauthorised" with an "s", not a "z", and it says "Distributed in Australia by Sony...". So it is an Australian CD, not European. And, much like early U.S. CDs made in Japan, this "Australian" CD was obviously made in the U.S., for distribution in Australia. Thanks again for checking, Pat. |