I Don’t Want To Be Right = Luther Ingram
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Topic: I Don’t Want To Be Right = Luther Ingram
Posted By: Fetta
Subject: I Don’t Want To Be Right = Luther Ingram
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 8:52pm
| How can the version of "(If Loving You Is Wrong) I Don't Want To Be Right" by Luther Ingram on the Dick Bartley's On The Radio Volume 5 cd be an "alternate vocal" if it was mastered from vinyl. |
Replies:
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 5:17pm
| All stereo versions released to date on compact disc are vinyl transfers. It is my opinion that the stereo vocal take is not the same as the mono vocal take Hence the comment "mastered from vinyl; alternate vocal take" |
Posted By: Fetta
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 5:32pm
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Thanks Pat for the clarification.
While we are on the subject of Dick Bartley, I just wanted to address something. First off, I think that Dick Bartley has done an amazing job with all of CDs and he has brought to us many hard to find 45 versions. And it is my understanding that he is a "stickler" at finding these versions. But if that is the case, why are several of the tracks on his CDs, in fact, not the correct 45 versions. (i.e. "Woodstock", "Chapel of Love") I hope this doesn't soound like a knock against Dick Bartley CD's. Like I said, I think they are great....but was just wondering why he would include these tracks on the CDs. -Fetta |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 5:23am
If it's the Matthew's Southern Comfort "Woodstock" you're referring to, he used the promo single edit of the song with the shortened intro and early fade. Several of the "promo edits" he's used are pretty good stereo re-creations, but aren't exact. A couple that come to mind are "Susan" by the Buckinghams and "Are You Ready"-Pacific Gas & Electric. That having been said, it's nice that someone has taken the time & effort to issue these, especially since the appeal is likely to be limited to collectors. Too bad they go out of print so fast. |
Fetta wrote:Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 5:33pm
| What differences from the dj edit did you find in "Susan" and "Are You Ready" on the Dick Bartley cd's? |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 6:14pm
I'd have to go back & check "Are You Ready", but the edit in "Susan" was noticeably loose. Hard to describe, but edit point is ~1/2 second late. Nit-picky perhaps, but quite noticeable if you're familiar with the promo single. |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 08 August 2008 at 5:27pm
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On the Dick Bartley CDs:
The "Susan" edit was an edit from the multitrack remixes done for the Legacy CDs, it has that doubling effect near the end that was only on the remix. Mathews' Southern Comfort was an incorrectly edited for the intro. (It should be a late start, not an edit) I thought Dick told me that the Pacific Gas and Electric came from a very clean DJ 45 as they didn't have the tape so I think that one is correct. Dick was trying hard to put out rare stereo or different versions you couldn't find elsewhere, hence some of the stranger versions. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 11 August 2008 at 9:03am
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I'll have to back up Fetta here and also say that many tracks on Dick Bartley's CDs are not the 45 versions. many times, when there is no official stereo mix, he will substitute one, or get an approximation. I know he's a hard-core stereo guy, but it drives me crazy!
Two glaring examples of songs that are not the 45 versions are: Want Ads - The Honey Cone Stand By Me - Spyder Turner Both are from the On The Radio series. ------------- |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 12 August 2008 at 5:59pm
| Hits Man, which Dick Bartley On The Radio Volume contains "Want Ads" by Honey Cone? |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 13 August 2008 at 8:52pm
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My apologies. I'll withdraw that, as it is actually Varese Vintage's Girl Groups's CD. I repeat, it is NOT on a Dick Bartley CD.
However, I will say that it does turn up as an edit of the stereo LP mix everywhere on CD except perhaps one, OOP CD. ------------- |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 1:09pm
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Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 8:14pm
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I just did an A/B comparison between the long (2:48) and edited (2:17) sides of the mono "Susan" DJ 45, and there is a discernable difference in the mixes between the two. It is especially noticeable in the run-up just before the stopping point for the psychedelia. The drumming is crisp and prominent on the (2:48) side, but is quite buried in the mix on the (2:17) side. There is more of a "wall of sound" feel to the (2:17) mix; it's harder to pick out the drumming and the bass.
Because of the mix differences, editing the (2:48) side does not produce the same result as the (2:17) edit. The drum beat at the "love-love-love-love" edit point is quieter and wetter on the (2:17) edit, giving it that "aluminum foil" sound that Jim mentioned. The same drum beat on the (2:48) side sounds more like a normal drum beat. The (2:48) side of the DJ 45 uses the same mix as the commercial 45. And even the edit on the vinyl (2:17) DJ 45 is a tad late. Tightening it up to match the beat produces a less-jarring edit. |
Posted By: PhilMH
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:40am
Hi all, This is my first post, having signed up to the site over the weekend, and Pat has just registered me for the forum so that I can resurrect this old topic and post what I've found out in the last couple of days! You may or may not know that Luther Ingram's KoKo sides have been reissued on CD by Ace-Kent in England over the last year or so. Regarding the stereo version of "I Don't Want To Be Right", here's what Ace's Tony Rounce has told me about the version used on the Kent two-on-one of Luther's original two albums: "It’s the same stereo tape that Varese Sarabande used on the ‘Hard To Find Hits’ CD (can’t remember which volume) and, SO far as I’m aware, it’s the only stereo mix in existence! I am pretty sure that Stax never issued ‘I Don’t Want to Be Right’ in stereo – my promo 45 is mono on both sides and it was in mono on Luther’s Ko Ko album. I like to think I might have noticed if I’d used a version with an alternate vocal, I’m not exactly unfamiliar with the track (LOL)!" I don't have either the Varese or the Kent CD, so can't comment one way or the other, but I certainly have the original I DON'T WANT TO BE RIGHT lp, with that song in mono as Tony says. So, assuming that both Pat and Tony are right, does anyone here (Pat included) know what lp had the alternate vocal? I've also emailed Pat some info for other CD's with either that song or "I'll Be Your Shelter", so I imagine that Pat will add them once he's checked them out. I can tell you that the one I have, titled I LIKE THE FEELING on the Urgent!/Ichiban label, has "I Don't Want To Be Right" in mono, with some distinct vinyl clicks and pops! Phil Adelaide, not-so-sunny-at-the-moment Australia |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 7:50am
| Welcome, Phil! |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 8:34am
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Note Re: If Loving You Is Wrong (I Don't Want To Be Right). The Stereo version was only on Second pressings of the Koko LP. First pressings of the Koko LP had this track in Mono. All known CD reissues using the Stereo version are needledrops. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: PhilMH
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 5:17pm
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Hi KentT,
In that case, there must still have been some first pressings sitting in warehouses in 1977, because that's when I bought mine as a cut-out! If you have a second pressing, could you post the matrix and/or stamper numbers from the label copy and the dead wax, and I will pass those along to Tony Rounce. Thanks, Phil |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 6:21am
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The known second pressings came from Florida area cut-out sections. I don't own one, I know someone else on another forum who has one (a transfer of it was used on the Dick Bartley CD). If I can get that information about deadwax and pressing plant who manufactured it, I'll pass it along. On Spyder Turner's "Stand By Me" only the original MGM 45 single has the edit. The 1980's Polydor reissue single has the full LP version (I own both) ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: PhilMH
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 2:17am
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Ok, I now have the Dick Bartley CD, and I am not hearing anything to suggest either an alternate take or a needledrop, but then my stereo system isn't high-end, so maybe it just isn't reproducing what Pat and KentT are hearing. I also suspect that my own auditory equipment might have lost some high-end over the years, too! So gents, what are you hearing that indicates an alternate or a dub? Also KentT, any luck yet with the label copy and wax scratchings?
Thanks, Phil |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 8:43pm
| On my copy of "On The Radio volume 5" I hear a pop at :35 and surface noise at 1:08 and 2:47. As for the vocal, listen to the line "if loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right" at the end of the song around 3:20 to 3:25. I hear a different pronunciation of the word "wrong" and a longer pause after the word "wrong" on the mono version. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 10:14pm
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I believe the LP that was the source for the Dick Bartley CD came from the collection of Charle Blanding who let Dick make a 15ips reel copy of the song back in the 80's. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 04 August 2010 at 2:47pm
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I was curious to see if the stereo LP version was a different recording or alternate take, so i did a quick synch-up of the stereo and mono. It's the same backing track, but indeed a different vocal take, the entire song.
It was very similar so i never noticed that. BTW, i did own the Koko stereo LP, so it must have been the later stereo pressing. I assumed the Varese/Dick Bartley CD dubbed it from that LP, but it was such a clean clear copy i got rid of the LP several years ago, so i don't have the dead-wax numbers or anything. Oh weel, now i know why the mono version is used so much. I won't let this new info bother me much about the stereo version, i mean if i didn't notice it was different in 25 years, i guess its close enough. -MM |
Posted By: PhilMH
Date Posted: 05 August 2010 at 4:46am
|
Now that I've listened over headphones, I can hear the pop and noise at 0:35 and 1:08 (though still not the one at 2:47!) and I agree that the "wrong" near the end is ever-so-slightly different. Still, it's close enough to the hit to not matter, I'm just glad to hear it in stereo at last! I've now ordered the UK two-on-one of Luther's first two albums, it will be interesting to hear whether or not it is the same tape.
Phil |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 28 July 2013 at 10:35pm
| The database currently notes that both the 45 and LP run time of Luther Ingram's "(If Loving You Is Wrong) I Don't Want to Be Right" is 3:32. According to some notes I have from Jim, he reports his commercial 45 copy has an actual run time of 3:29, not 3:25 as stated on the record label. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 25 March 2018 at 12:12pm
I'm going to go out on a limb, and speculate about four points, none of which I can verify firsthand:
45 and mono LP version (3:29) The oldest CD I have with the song is Rhino's Didn't It Blow Your Mind Vol. 8 (1991), where it runs 3:25. The database says "sounds like it was mastered from vinyl", and I believe that it really is a needledrop, but I don't hear the usual artifacts that I hear from needledrops. It's a very good needledrop, with excellent dynamic range, and nice EQ. I don't hear any evidence of noise reduction on the fade, although it's possible that Rhino hastened the fade to mask the low-volume vinyl artifacts at the end of the track. The following CDs all use the same needledrop as Didn't It Blow Your Mind Vol. 8:
Stereo LP version (3:38) It's clearly a needledrop on Varese Sarabande's Dick Bartley On The Radio Vol. 5 (1998), with turntable rumble noise reduction artifacts on the fade. Safe to say that the other 3:38 versions on CD are all from this needledrop. My recommendations For the 45/mono LP version, go with Time-Life's 2-CD Body And Soul Vol. 7 Slow And Easy (1999), but only because the fade extends longer than the other discs. Any of the CDs I listed above sound good. For the stereo LP version, go with Varese Sarabande's Dick Bartley On The Radio Vol. 5 (1998). ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 27 April 2018 at 8:12am
|
Some things to know. Koko Records in that era was
distributed by Stax Records in Memphis during their independent era. Larry Nix mastered the original Plastic Products Memphis pressing of the 45 I own. Fantasy Records bought the post 1968 Stax/Volt/Enterprise/Ardent catalog in 1976. I wonder if the single master is sitting on an old Stax job reel of 1972 singles masters? It might well if these singles masters have survived. And if so, are they in Concord's Stax master tape library. Stranger things have happened. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:19am
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Kent, the single version was released on CD twice by
Rhino. It is on: Soul Hits Of The '70s - didn't it blow your mind! Vol. 8 Billboard Hot Soul Hits; 1972 Of course, both CDs are long out of print. Ever since those two CDs were released, everyone has been using that stereo version, which sounds very close to the single, but not it. The KoKo label was short-lived, and was distributed by Stax Records. The label was set up for Johnny Baylor. ------------- |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 28 May 2018 at 6:46am
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Yes, and it sounds like it was taken from vinyl. Transfer
is reasonably good given that. I was pointing out where the tapes likely exist which made that 45 to begin with. And where for reissue engineers to begin looking. The tapes are likely still at Concord in the vaults on a singles master reel. When 45 RPM singles get prepared for a label release, they get spliced together on a 10 1/2" reel of full track Mono or half track Stereo tape to facilitate lacquer mastering and the succeeding steps for plating and pressing. Stax would have assembled this reel, Larry Nix used it to cut lacquer masters for 45 RPM pressing. Then usually the reel would get returned to the vault. I know that Koko was distributed then by Stax, and the label later became independently distributed. But not unusual for singles masters left behind in a former distributed label's singles job master reel in their vaults. And these days, likely stored at Iron Mountain in their vault. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: VWestlife
Date Posted: 13 March 2022 at 12:42am
| Is the glitch at 2:59 in all copies of "(If Loving You Is Wrong) I Don't Want To Be Right"? It's a stutter in the middle of "wrong", making it sound like "wro-oong". A bad tape splice? |