Tommy James 40th Anniversary CD
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Topic: Tommy James 40th Anniversary CD
Posted By: Brian W.
Subject: Tommy James 40th Anniversary CD
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 5:08pm
From producer Ed Osborne on SteveHoffman.tv:
I did post a question asking him about the single mix for "Draggin' the Line," since it was mono, but he hasn't answered yet. |
Ed Osborne wrote:Replies:
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 5:12pm
|
Brian, the first thought I had too was "Draggin' The Line."
I did some painstaking surgery on a beat up 45 to recreate the mono 45 of "Crystal Blue Persuasion." Will be ideal if the mono 45 of this turns up in the collection. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 5:14pm
|
As a bonus track they should include the early mono version of Draggin' The Line, when it was just a B side of the release before the hit version. I shocked one of my DJ friends by playing both for him back to back.... ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 5:30pm
| So, Tom, there were actually 3 versions of "Draggin' the Line?" |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 5:53pm
| I'm pumped to learn of this new Tommy James compilation and can't wait to finally be able to get the original hit single mixes from master tape sources! This is a CD collection that's long overdue. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 7:05pm
|
Yes, "Draggin' The Line" sans brass overdubs is quite the revelation!
"Ball Of Fire" was a stereo single mix? Where? My double A-sided promo is mono/mono, and my stock copy is mono as well. But the bass on the 45 mix just blows away the wimpy stereo LP version. Let's hope that CCM gets Tommy's non-charting final Roulette 45 right. The "Calico" that Rhino passed off as Roulette 7147 on The Solo Years may have been a song called "Calico," but it was an entirely different song than the "Calico" 45. The promo copies of the "Calico" 45, though labeled and deadwax stamped as stereo/mono, actually played mono/mono. Will CCM unearth it in stereo? XM's '60s channel played Tommy's newer stuff; I bought the CD singles of "I Love Christmas" and the remake of "Sweet Cherry Wine" with Tommy and The Kootz. Sounds like they might be included, too. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 12:35am
Yep.... There's the common stereo mix, where the horn echoes from one channel to the other, there's the hit mono mix where the horn appears to be without any echo on it (so you hear the horn part twice each time in the mono as opposed to 4 times in the stereo -- im just going by memory here, btw), and there's the original 45 rpm version that is without the horn part entirely. If further clarification is needed i can provide short samples of what I mean... ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 2:06am
AaronK did a good 45 transfer, too, and I seem to remember him telling me that for one damaged portion he folded the stereo mix, and you couldn't even tell. I think he played it for me, and I couldn't tell, either. So maybe the commercial 45 was a fold-down of one of those unique mixes Osborne is talking about. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 12:38pm
| Does anyone know if the upcoming Tommy James 40th Anniversary CD compilation on the Collectors' Choice label is still sheduled for an October 14 release? I've been wanting to pre-order it on the label's website, but I still don't see any information about it. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 6:32pm
|
Re-reading the original post, i was surprised to see the comment that there is no stereo mix of I Think We're Alone Now. Not on vinyl, sure, but at least two different stereo mixes do exist on cd. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 7:20pm
But are either of those the final mix of the song? I only have one stereo version on CD, which Tommy has referred to on XM as an early, rough mix attempt, on which they'd added keyboards and other instrumentation. After listening to it, they went back and stripped much of that instrumentation out during the verses for a simpler feel on the final, hit mix. After all of that adding and stripping, the final mix sounded a bit distorted even on the original 45, which perhaps might explain why a stereo mix was not attempted in 1967. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 9:04am
The 2nd stereo mix was a remix from the session tape, it sounds closer to the 45 version but is still not accurate....but then again 95% of all stereo mixes don't match their mono counterparts when folded down to mono. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 4:12pm
The October CCM catalog arrived today, and it says October 14th is the day. The set is A-side singles-based, so it would appear that the version of "Draggin' The Line" on the set will be the hit A-side with overdubs, not the horns-free original B-side (so hang onto those "Church Street Soul Revival" 45s!) I know that the slower pitch on "Hanky Panky" will drive me nuts, but that'll be easy enough to deal with. :) 
|
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 8:34am
According to Mike Callahan's BSN 1991 publication A Guide To Oldies On Compact Disc, Bill Inglot has stated that Rhino used a Snap 45 for Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits - 1966. It is therefore quite possible that most CD appearances of this song are in fact the Snap speed. The same publication claims that Roulette used a Snap 45 when they reissued the song, although Tommy James claimed in a Goldmine interview many years ago that he himself brought the master tape to Roulette. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 11:20am
|
Roulette never had a master tape to source from until they made their own master using a 2nd pressing Snap 45 (which was already sped up). The Roulette master has record noise on the intro but is how the record always sounded on Roulette 45's and lp's, anyway.
There were tens of thousands of 2nd pressing Snap (and Red Fox) 45's sold which contained the song already sped up. Chances are some cds (and probably the Roulette master) are sourced from these, but they're still not the true originals. Besides, if Roulette had the master tape, why would anyone need to use a vinyl source? All copies of the song clearly are vinyl dubs, without exception...and i've heard the slower version of the song, i prefer it sped up for sure. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 02 October 2008 at 9:52pm
| The 40 Years (1966-2006) CD set is now available for pre-order on the http://www.ccmusic.com - Collectors' Choice website. You'll need to perform an artist search under "TOMMY JAMES & THE SHONDELLS" to find it. |
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 1:32pm
Thanks for that interesting info, Tom. I have owned a Snap 45 for over twenty years but have always suspected it was not an original. It must be one of the second pressing 45s, and it's also likely one of these that Rhino used.
|
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 3:08pm
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That is a 2nd press Snap 45, as it mentions Red Fox records on the label. It could be an original if it has machine stamping in the trail-out, but this was the version that was bootlegged. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 8:34pm
|
Has anyone received their copy of the 40th Anniversary CD set yet? I pre-ordered mine from the Collector's Choice website several weeks ago and I still haven't received anything, nor have I gotten word of a delivery date.
|
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 9:01pm
|
Todd:
I've seen a website list 10/21 as a release date, yet in a Google search, found 2 other websites with later release dates. One listed 11/11 and the other listed 11/25. Could the collection have been delayed? |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:58am
| I called Collectors Choice to order the CD in the evening on the 14th, and was told that it was out of stock. When I remarked to the operator that it seemed odd that it would already be out of stock on its release day, she said that they probably hadn't updated it yet. But my guess is that is has been delayed. |
Posted By: jono
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 8:06am
|
ccmusic.com now lists the release date as 11/11.
Jon O. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 06 November 2008 at 12:01am
| Got an email telling me my Tommy James 40th Anniversary shipped today! |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 6:08pm
| Day late, but mine shipped today! |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 6:19pm
|
My copy arrived today. A few quick observations after a cursory listen:
"Hanky Panky". The splicing glitch on all previous dubs I've heard at the 2:22 mark on this track is gone. "Gettin' Together" is at the correct slower speed of the original 45. Yay! "Out Of The Blue" has the complete, longer fade of the vinyl 45, but the CD track runs faster. By the end of the tune, it is running 1.63 seconds ahead of the 45. "Mirage" is the correct mono 45, with the extra reverb on the phrase "where are you?" present at the 1:07 mark, just as it originally was on the single. The CD track here runs slower than the 45, with a difference of just over nine-tenths of a second at the end. The CD fade is more gradually-sloped and runs a few seconds longer than it did on the 45. The group's final "just a mirage" did not originally make it onto the 45, and it sounds kind of odd here. Perhaps that's why it was originally cut. "Ball Of Fire" disappoints me. Both promo and stock copies of the 45 were mono, and featured the strongest bass line on any TJ&TS single. But the stereo mix on the CD has the bass entirely in the right channel, making it sound much less beefy than the killer 45 did; the bass drum now seems to have more presence than the bass guitar. Summing the track to mono doesn't quite provide the same result. Even so, this mix is far superior to the stereo album version. The fade begins later than on the 45 and runs longer, too. "Celebration" is mono, although not listed as such on the CD packaging. "Calico". One of the main reasons I ordered this set was because advance indications were that this track was the single version, in stereo. This track is not designated as being in mono on the packaging. Alas, it is mono, just as the "stereo" DJ 45s were. "Love Is Gonna Find A Way". Was the promo 45 an edit? I don't have a stock copy. My stereo/mono DJ 45 has a stated time of (3:58); the track on the CD runs an actual (5:15). "Three Times In Love" runs longer than the 45/LP here, too. The liner notes state that "Say I Am" and "It's Only Love" were both million-sellers. Joel Whitburn says otherwise. One other point: I'd always thought that the distortion on some of the Roulette 45s was inherent in the transfers and cutting processes done back in the '60s, but I'm hearing a fair amount of that on this new set, too, like on the organ on "Mirage". So I guess those 45s were more faithful to their original sources than I'd thought. It may seem that I'm nitpicking here, but sets like this one are supposed to address all of those nits. Or will the 50 Years collection take care of those? :) All the same, I'm thrilled to have the single mixes on CD. Gonna have to get out the 45s to match those fades and timings, though. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:16pm
|
I figured this collection was going to feature all the correct 45 mixes/versions. So, they only got some of them right?
So, John, two questions... Is Draggin' The Line the long sought after mono 45 version? Is Sweet Cherry Wine the proper 45 version? |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:46pm
|
John, yes to both questions. "Draggin' The Line" is the 1971 hit mono 45 version with brass overdubs and more subdued keyboards, just as they said it would be. It is not the original 1970 hornless B-side of "Church Street Soul Revival" version, which also had more prominent keyboards in the mix.
I detected a couple of differences in the fades upon hearing them for the first time, but I haven't listened to most of the track endings yet. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 4:45pm
|
My copy of the collection arrived today.
Noticed, too, that "Crystal Blue Persuasion" doesn't seem to match the pitch of the 45. And, the quality of the recording is a disappointment. The length runs almost 4:00. |
Posted By: jono
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 10:16am
|
Got my copy Saturday.
In comparing "Three Times In Love" from this collection to my 45, I think it's actually sped up slightly on the "40 Years" cd. In a rough comparison, at the end of the song, my 45 was 2 seconds behind the cd. I thought I had read somewhere several years ago that many European tapes ran faster than U.S. tapes, for a reason I can't remember but sounded convincing at the time. Anyone know anything about this being fact or fiction? If fact, it may explain a little about some of these pitch differences if these master tapes came from Europe, as rumored. Either that or my old turntable is too slow (which maybe I shoulda checked before posting!). As Yah Shure mentioned, the song does run longer (about 4:17 on the cd) than on the 45 - the fade actually continues a few extra seconds. Also, "Sweet Cherry Wine" runs about 5-7 seconds shorter on the cd than on my 45, but I haven't figured out why yet. Jon O. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 11:05am
|
I figured out "Crystal Blue Persuasion" runs :02 faster on the CD than it does on the 45. And, the CD's fade is about :02-:03 longer.
"Mony Mony" runs 2:48 on the CD, database says the 45 runs 2:55. Is the CD too fast here too? What 45 sources did they use for these songs that the pitch/fades are wrong? |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 11:51am
|
I admit it, I'm nitpicking...LOL.
"Draggin' The Line" also runs about 1-2 seconds faster on the CD than the 45. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 8:06pm
|
"Mony Mony". At John's request, I compared the new CD track to the 45. This one's a mess.
For starters, the CD track runs much faster than the 45, by a whopping 1.9 percent! Once I slowed the CD track down, the two played together just fine. Up until the 2:24.666 mark, that is. At this point (following the middle break) it immediately became apparent that there was an edit on the CD track which did not appear on the vinyl 45. The edit occurs as Tommy sings the word "Yeah!" On the 45, the crowd sounds continue uninterrupted behind that word, but on the CD track, the crowd suddenly disappears at that same "Yeah!" The word "Yeah!" sung by Tommy on the CD track is not from the 45 version. There is another difference that occurs at this point. A second crowd response is missing from the CD track as follows: (Tommy in bold type, crowd in regular) CD: "Yeah!" "Yeah!" Everybody! 45: "Yeah!" "Yeah! Yeah!" Everybody! And a third difference arises. From the "Everybody!" point on, the two tracks are once again from the same take. However, the CD track begins to run faster than the 45 (remember, I'd already slowed the CD track down once.) In order to mitigate the speed differences, I matched the end point of the CD fadeout to its vinyl counterpart, which confirmed the bad news: the CD track trims off the last four seconds of the 45. Out of curiosity, I cranked up the end of the CD fade, and discovered that the last 1.5 seconds were very fuzzy. Are we looking at some master tape damage, perhaps? |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 10:04pm
| "Sweet Cherry Wine" runs about 1.698 seconds slower than the vinyl 45. The fades do not show any significant differences. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 10:19pm
|
I'm actually thinking of putting my collection on ebay. This extra work to match 45 pitch/fades is for the birds...
|
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:33am
|
As much as I realize the effort put into this collection by some key names in the industry, it was just not for me. Guess I've become a 45 version 'purist'. The right way, or no way.
I put mine on ebay last night. :( |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:27pm
Sounds like this is the mono album version then. According to the database, "the LP version...has an ever so slightly different edit at 2:25 than the 45 version." |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 11:12am
| Has anyone else reviewed this CD? What about Crimson & Clover? Is that correct? |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 1:36pm
I don't have the 45s to compare them to, but I did receive my copy yesterday. "Crimson and Clover" is mono, and the actual running time is 3:20. Since the single runs much shorter than the album version, it seems unlikely they would have used the wrong tape for that one. Hopefully Pat will get a review copy soon. It sounds like "Mony Mony" may be the only bad mistake on this. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:18pm
| I guess I was wondering if it's the actual 45 version, or the 'noble attempt' that mentioned on several CD's in the database. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 8:56pm
|
John, my "Crimson And Clover" Roulette stock 45 is the more common pressing, with "Some Kind Of Love" on the B-side, rather than "(I'm) Taken." The 40 Years CD does have the correct 45 edit. This one's pretty darn close to the 45; the CD runs ever-so-slightly slower at the beginning, but then keeps pace for the duration, ending up a mere 00:00.056 slower than the 45.
However (and there seem to be a lot of those in this thread) the CD track does fade out earlier, at a slightly steeper rate, deleting the last 2.583 seconds. From a purist's standpoint, this is not ideal. But from a practical standpoint, the majority of that final 2.583 seconds on the 45 is two chimes, at a barely-audible level, and even that is mostly lost in the surface noise of the record. I can guarantee you that those final chimes were never aired on top-40 radio unless some deejays were too busy to notice that the record had run out. But as minor as they are, the two chimes are a bit interesting. The backing track fades out completely, and those two chimes are left all by themselves, with no fade between them, and they complete the last bar of the song. It would have been nice to have heard them without the vinyl surface noise. <sigh> The bottom line on "Crimson And Clover": the CD track is fine. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 9:43pm
Anything on here that's mono is not going to be the "noble attempt at recreating the 45 version." That note refers to trying to create a stereo 45 version where one did not exist before. The problem with "Mony Mony" appears to be is that they used the mono LP version instead of the mono single version. I'll add to all this that "Three Times in Love" is the previously issued CD length. It runs longer than the US 45. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 9:45pm
| Thanks, Brian, I have an order in for a 45 for Mony Mony. |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 9:50pm
| Thanks for the info, guys. |
Posted By: Bwci Bo
Date Posted: 17 May 2015 at 5:05pm
|
I've just acquired a copy of this CD and while I am not
too fussed about having the exact lengths and fades of the corresponding vinyl 45s, I'd at least like to have everything playing at the correct speed. Can anyone tell me how much I need to slow down the following tracks in order to have them playing at the true 45 speed, please? I'm using Audacity so a percentage amount would be ideal, thanks. Crystal Blue Persuasion Out Of The Blue Gettin' Together Thanks in advance! |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 18 May 2015 at 8:57am
|
I also purchased this CD within the last year, and overall they did a great job
with it. I can tell for sure that "Crimson And Clover" and "Draggin' The Line" are vinyl dubs, although they did a really nice job cleaning them up. There may be one or two others that are needle drops, but those two stuck out to my ears. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Bwci Bo
Date Posted: 18 May 2015 at 4:41pm
|
Aaron: Agreed, overall it's a pretty good compilation.
My ears aren't as sharp as yours so I hadn't noticed the vinyl dubs. But at the end of the day, I'd rather have some nice sounding vinyl dubs than nothing at all. I just need to figure out the speed correction for Out Of The Blue. Big thanks to edtop40 for his help with the other two. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 18 May 2015 at 6:52pm
You're in luck, Duane! The same "Out Of The Blue" 45 needledrop I used for my initial analysis is still on the hard drive and is headed your way. |
Posted By: Bwci Bo
Date Posted: 18 May 2015 at 8:30pm
| Cheers John! |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 22 May 2015 at 8:32pm
|
Until the true mono 45 version of "Mony Mony" shows up
digitally, i'm happy to keep using my needledrop of the 45. I understand that the reason Tommy James didn't use the single version tape is because the it was always wrong, and he wanted to use the opportunity to fix it. Revisionist history. ------------- |
Posted By: TallPaulInKy
Date Posted: 02 November 2019 at 10:06am
The problem with comparing the 45s against a CD reissue, you almost have to use the DJ copies for comparison. Record companies had various pressing plants to manufacture product for the two coasts and sometimes one in Nashville or Chicago for the Mid West. When the disk masters were cut for the various plants (they did not ship metal masters to other plants, as a general rule) Typical singles were cut 1/4 musical tone faster, unless requested to be cut flat on the work order. Therefore a difference of a second or two in playing time was common. So best not to get too excited about a couple seconds difference. The reason the DJ copy is the definitive one, is because normally it is the one approved by the producer, they were generally pressed in the same plant. |
Posted By: Hykker
Date Posted: 03 November 2019 at 7:23am
Maybe, maybe not...that varied by label. I don't know about Roulette but at the very least London and Atlantic group promos were different in different parts of the country. West coast of both were Monarch pressings on styrene, east coast Atlantic were on vinyl. London promos were styrene, but not Monarch pressings. Not sure about the midwest or south. I believe all Capitol promos were from the same plant. YahShure could probably shed a lot more light on this. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 03 November 2019 at 8:42pm
The only TJ&TS Roulette 45 I have that was NOT mastered by Bell Sound is "Hanky Panky", and that's most likely because the song was recorded at WNIL, and not in New York City. From "Say I Am (What I Am)" onward, every one of them, whether manufactured at RCA in Rockaway or Indianapolis, or at Columbia, was pressed from metal parts sourced from lacquers cut by Bell Sound Studio in NYC. The recording sessions took place at Allegro Sound, then the mastering to disc was done at nearby Bell Sound. Because no plants west of Indiana were contracted by Roulette, it may have been more economical to send the metal parts, instead of paying each of them to provide custom mastering. Shelley Products was used on occasion, but neither they nor Columbia was ultized after "Out Of The Blue", leaving RCA as Roulette's only pressing plant for 45s through the early '70s.
In most cases, the "A" and "B" sides on the promos and stocks were the same, other than the difference in labels. The promos were the first ones out of the chute, obviously, but that didn't necessarily make them any more "definitive" than the earliest stock pressings, given that both configurations were made from the same metal parts within each plant. Between Ritchie Cordell and Bo Gentry, then Tommy, I seriously doubt that any of them, as producers, approved promo runs and stock runs separately. They simply signed off on "the single."
Perhaps that may be true of the rest of the world, but such minutiae is the very point of many of the discussions on this site! My gripe about this particular CD release was that there were a few songs that didn't sound the same as those lacquers that were cut by Bell Sound. "Ball Of Fire" was a real letdown. The compilation producer could have compared it with the tape and said, "Hey, we need to kick up the bottom end so the tape on that song matches the power of the 45." |
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 05 November 2019 at 11:39am
| The tapes used for this release, at least for the Roulette material, were supposedly found in the EMI vaults in the UK. So these may well be the UK single versions. |
Posted By: Edoz
Date Posted: 29 September 2020 at 1:48pm
|
Bumping this up because...in Yah Shure's post detailing the differences between this CD and the original singles, he says that "Gettin' Together" is the same speed as the commercial 45.
Pat's notation says that it is slightly faster. I searched and didn't find any followup from Yah Shure or others. So...is Pat right? |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 02 October 2020 at 10:03am
|
Ed the commercial 45 and CD appearance on this cd appear
to be equal. |