Chicago - Beginnings & Questions 45s
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Topic: Chicago - Beginnings & Questions 45s
Posted By: eric_a
Subject: Chicago - Beginnings & Questions 45s
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 4:07pm
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Hi - I've been looking to find or edit two early Chicago singles, Beginnings and Questions 67 and 68, from their album versions. As far as I can tell, they don't seem to exist on CD. (The Rhino reissues have some other early single versions, including "25 or 6 to 4").
The TMCentury Golddisc database lists "Beginnings" as a 2:32 edit, with a 5-second intro. I remember hearing this on the radio once, but I can't recall where the cuts were. Based on that information, I created my own edit, cutting directly from the guitar intro and drum fill to the first verse. Then, after the breakdown, I cut back into the second set of "Woah-oh-oh" and faded there. Does anyone know if this is correct? The database also lists a short version of "Questions 67 & 68". Anyone familiar with this? Thanks - Eric |
Replies:
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 7:03pm
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the 45 of "beginnings" runs 2:45 and i don't think was ever issued on cd........the 45 of "questions 67 and 68" runs 3:25 and was issued on the cd "greatest hits volume 2"........as far as my research goes, the only two 45 versions NOT ever issued on cd are "beginnings" and "does anybody really know what time it is?" with the spoken words during the break........edtop40 ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 7:23pm
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edtop40....so, the 45 of "does anybody really know what time it is?" HAS the talking? I don't have a 45 to compare, but I seem to recall it not being there when I listened to it on the radio, which I remember as being played without the longer brass intro too, i.e., shortening it to 20 seconds from 46. perhaps there is a radio edit (which could be what i have on the LP Chicago IX Greatest Hits, NOT the CD of same). whew.
SO, my real question, was the talking on the 45 and how long does it run. thanks ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 7:25pm
| If you're using TM Century's database as a reference, you should note that the times listed are NOT the full run times of the songs. The times are based on when the next song (or element) should start when playing it on the air. (Obviously, you wouldn't hear the song fade all the way out before the next song started, unless the DJ wasn't paying attention.) So, in this case, the DJ would start another song, play a station ID, etc., when "Beginnings" is at the 2:32 mark. (Generally, the times listed are when the song fades to the point of peaking at the -12 db mark.) |
Posted By: Moderator
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 8:18pm
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No talking on my commercial copy of "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is". ------------- Top 40 Music On Compact Disc Moderator |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 8:24pm
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i just listened to my 45 versus the version from their greatest hits vol 1 and the cd HAS spoken words in the background from the 2:12-2:32 mark while the 45 does not........the songs are the same otherwise.........they both run 3:17.....the cd is stereo while the 45 version is mono.......hope this clear this up.............does anyone have this song on cd WITHOUT the spoken words in the background?? ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 8:45pm
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The 2:52 DJ edit appears on the long out-of-print "If You Leave Me Now." No talking on that one, BTW. I don't have Pat's book in front of me, and I can't recall if the 2:52 edit was stereo or mono.
Doug |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 8:47pm
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the dj edit of beginings or does anyone?? ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 8:53pm
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Sorry. The DJ edit of "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?"
Did "Beginnings" have a DJ edit (I know there was a commercial edit)? Doug |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 8:58pm
I don't think the 45 of "(I've Been) Searchin' So Long" was issued on a CD (all CDs I know have the LP version unless something changed recently). And I'm not aware of the 45 edit of "I'm A Man" (the B-side of "Questions 67 & 68") on a CD either (the Rhino edit on "The Very Best of Chicago" is not the 45 version). Doug |
edtop40 wrote:Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 06 October 2005 at 5:05am
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thanks for clearing that up re: the 45 and DJ edits of "does anybody really know what time it is?". So, the 45 hasn't been on CD then. And the dj edit was on "If You Leave Me Now". Never heard of that one! It WAS stereo on the LP Chicago IX Greatest Hits of course. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 10:43pm
| I haven't yet attempted to replicate the 45 version of "Beginnings" from the LP version yet, but I have done an A/B comparison between the two to get an idea of where the edits occur. Let me tell you, the 45 version is one awful hatchet job! You would need to perform five different edits on the LP version to create the 45, plus you'd have to go back and extract an earlier part of the song, splice it at the end, and fade it so that it matches the 45 ending. Rather than undergo the tedious task of trying to explain here where the edits occur, I think it would be far better for me to send an mp3 copy of the vinyl 45 version via e-mail if anyone is interested. |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:37pm
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History on those Chicago edits:
First 45 was Question 67 and 68 in 1969. Barely charted. DJ Copy had a different edit than the 1971 45 issue. Different intro edit, different second edit to remove the second verse. It was a true mono mix with a louder vocal than heard anywhere else. Mono A side was that edit, Mono B side was the full LP version but mixed for a Mono punch. Second 45 was Beginnings which features 11 edits. And good luck finding all the parts! TM Century did not get them all correct. TM Century actually has one small part in mono because they couldn't figure out the edit so they inserted a small part of the mono 45 into their edit. Then TM Century edited the ending wrong. B side in 1969 was and edit of Poem 58. This 1969 single didn't chart but has a time listed as 2:47. It's the same as the 2:45 version issued in 1971 with Colour My World on the back. I don't think there is any difference in the time. When Columbia decided to issue Beginnings again in 1971 they simply went back to the edit from 1969. Which is why that 45 was mono on both sides (including Colour My World) even though previous 45s were stereo. Columbia never edited Beginnings for stereo. But when they issued Questions 67 and 68, they re-edited the song from the stereo LP, and ignored the 1969 remix and issued a stereo single. Yeah Chicago's Greatest Hits on vinyl had the DJ edit/mix and edit of Does Anybody Know What Time It Is? but when Columbia made the CD they replaced it with an edit from the LP version. Correctly stated on this string is the appearance of that exact same DJ edit/mix on the out of print If You Leave Me Know CD. The DJ edit of Wishing You Were Here has not made it to CD either. |
Posted By: Rick Hunter
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 6:14pm
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I played the 45 version of "Does Anybody Really Know...." on the radio as a CURRENT HIT (cough cough) in 1971 and am still playing it - although. until recently, it's been the incorrect version from the Century 21 CD.
I've just reconstructed the full, correct hit single version, which includes the horns intro and NO talking. Running time is 3:17 About 2 years ago when I was playing the incorrect "talk" version, a station exec (who is no longer there, but will remain nameless) called the switchboard gal to have her inform me that I had left the mic on and she could hear me "talking" during the song. I've just ripped the correct version into the station's computer...no more eroneous calls from station management. Rick Hunter Oldies 104.3 WOMC/Detroit |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 6:43pm
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hey rich.....any way you could shoot a wave file of the correct "no voice" 45 on cd to me? ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: Rick Hunter
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 9:47pm
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Sure edtop40. How do I get it to you?
RH |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 11:11pm
| Funny story, Rick! How are things in Detroit? I left WDRQ two years ago for Dallas. My old station is probably playing "Beginnings" now that they've become "Doug FM." |
Posted By: eric_a
Date Posted: 28 October 2005 at 6:03pm
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So I finally sat down and cut the stereo CD version (from "The Heart of Chicago" CD) and believe these are the cuts you'd need to make your own. All times are from the CD version:
0:00-0:02 - Acoustic guitar from beginning. Cut after two bars to: 0:06-0:09 - 2-bar Drum fill to: 0:35-1:40 -Downbeat of first verse. Cut after second "silence...la la la" to: 1:49-2:43 Downbeat of verse ("When I kiss you"). Cut right before "Mostly" Then there's a quick drum fill from the 45. Apparently TM Century couldn't find it, so I lifted it from the 45 too. Then to: 3:02-3:12 Instrumental breakdown (4 bars) to: 3:56-4:04 One of the last "Only the beginning" lines, with the horns. Cut back to: 2:27-2:43 Chorus "oooooh". Cut before "Mostly" to: 2:35-2:43 Back to horn hook; repeat this segment and fade. Somehow wrote 11 cuts, I guess this is only 10 - did I miss something? In any case, this will get you pretty close...good luck! |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 29 October 2005 at 1:22pm
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That missing piece that nobody can find is the beat found before the second "Mostly I'm silent".. after the second woah woah woah part.. it's just one little beat and why they put it there I can't say.
As far as how I count 11.. On the 2:47 45 there are three splices at the very end on the fade out... you have to crank your volume up to hear them. I only have 2:47 copies. If somebody has a 2:45 copy (with Colour My World on the other side) they can verify if those splices are on those copies too. They may have faded out the song before those splices on the 2:45 version. I don't know. The 2:47 version was released in 1969 and again on some promo copies in the 1970s and may have been on the Hall of Fame reissues. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 11:18am
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so.........does anyone have a computer generated edit of "beginnings" that matches the 45 issued as columbia 45417 ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 12:43pm
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Don't have a computer generated edit--my copy was custom-made for me by a company that charged me almost an arm and a leg to have it (never dealing with them again). From what I can tell, it does seem to match the edits as described above. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 7:33pm
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hey doug.........the mp3 you sent was pretty dead on..........except for the fade out being a little off..........it's exceptional..........i highly recomend it.........thx for the effort ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 7:42pm
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My pleasure, Ed. Although I will say this--I did have some troubles with the people who made it on a subsequent transaction, and they're not exactly moderately priced (and this was something like 10 or 11 years ago when I had this edit made). So I'm not exactly willing to give them a glowing recommendation (I won't even publicize them here--of course, with the bevy of source material available from you folks, it's not like any of us really need to utilize their services).
I am glad you enjoyed it though, Ed. If anyone really needs further details, you know where to reach me. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: eric_a
Date Posted: 12 March 2006 at 3:12pm
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After enough listening to the 45 and LP of "Beginnings", I found exactly where the phantom breakdown beats are found, around 1.21 in the LP version. (These beats are actually found earlier in the single as well.) So...here's my completed editlist:
0:00-0:02 - Acoustic guitar from beginning. Cut after two bars to: 0:06-0:09 - 2-bar Drum fill to: 0:35-1:40 -Downbeat of first verse. Cut after second "silence...la la la" to: 1:49-2:43 Downbeat of verse ("When I kiss you"). Cut right before "Mostly" ***1:21-1:22 - From beat 2 of that measure to just after beat 4 3:02-3:12 Instrumental breakdown (4 bars) to: 3:56-4:04 One of the last "Only the beginning" lines, with the horns. Cut back to: 2:27-2:43 Chorus "oooooh". Cut before "Mostly" to: 2:35-2:43 Back to horn hook; repeat this segment. With the edits in place, end at 2:49 and fade starting at 2:38. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 12 March 2006 at 5:25pm
| Good info! Thanks Eric. |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 2:09pm
| I believe I have the entire 11 edits on an mp3 which I can send you. Including the needless three edits on the fade out.. |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:58pm
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"Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?". First single release on the old style label has the jazz vamp intro on it and the talking in the break. The re-released single had the jazz vamp edited out and no talking in the break. Version 1 was a fair seller, version 2 was a big hit. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: jebsib
Date Posted: 02 April 2021 at 6:57am
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Curious about Chicago's "Beginnings" - not sure if anyone was listening to the
radio back in 1971, but... It seems like a very odd song to get to #1 at Adult Contemporary stations at that time. I see it wedged between super soft hits by Olivia, James Taylor, Carpenters and Bread... and its sticks out like a sore thumb as a hard, brass rock jam. On the other hand, its 45 flip-side, "Colour My World", never a single, was played to death in the 70s and became the ipso-facto prom theme for middle America that decade. Any idea if AC was just being adventurous on Beginnings, or if someone at Billboard only reported the A-Side due to some chart policy? |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 02 April 2021 at 11:38am
How is this "very odd"? Blood, Sweat & Tears' "Spinning Wheel", which is also heavy on the brass, had already been a BB AC chart-topper two years earlier, and its follow-up, "And When I Die", was close behind at #4. It wasn't as though Chicago hadn't already enjoyed breakthrough AC success, since "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is" had been a top 5 AC hit a half-year earlier. I would consider the 45 version of "Beginnings" to be a medium tempo pop record, not a "hard brass rock jam." It's very much in the same vein as "DARKWTII". Middle-of-the-road radio was gradually changing with the times, and the sound of acts featuring prominent brass sections, including BS&T and Chicago, would not have been entirely foreign to many older MOR listeners who'd come of age during the Big Band era. MOR playlists were by no means limited to just super-soft hits like "You've Got A Friend", "For All We Know" or "If". I'm exaggerating here, of course, but Olivia's "If Not For You" is like a savage rocker, compared to, say, her later "I Honestly Love You". And it even has a fuzz guitar during the break (which is mixed a little more upfront on the mono single.)
Not sure how "Colour My World" can and cannot simultaneously be "a single." In any event, it didn't earn enough spins to chart MOR. Although Chicago III had sold well, neither of its two singles, "Free" and "Lowdown" kept the group's top-40 momentum on the rise, and with the prospects of a 4-LP live album later on in the year, Columbia did what it had to, by mining the first two albums for potential singles success. "Colour My World" was a part of that strategy, and while it may not have shown up on the Hot 100 as anything more than a "flip", having worked in college radio at the time "Beginnings"/"Colour My World" was a current single, I can tell you that the latter title was one of our most heavily requested song for months on end. Its time had come, belated though it may have been. One more thought on how MOR radio was adapting to the reality that the Dean Martins and John Garys of the world were no longer selling in sufficient numbers at the beginning of the new decade: here in Minneapolis/St. Paul, the by-far dominant station at the time was WCCO-AM. It was a legendary full service, 50,000-watt powerhouse. WCCO began to realize that they needed some younger blood on the staff and hired Denny Long, who'd been with a local oldies station, to be their new music director in early 1971 (he's still there, 50 years later.) Later that same year, one of the WCCO personalities got onto the subject of the Rolling Stones, realizing that the majority of his listeners had probably never actually heard a record by the group. So he put on a cut from the Stones' latest album, Sticky Fingers. Which song did he pick as being representative of the band? "Bitch". Local boy Bob Dylan, whose hard rock jam, "Subterranean Homesick Blues", had gone to number 6 on Billboard's Middle-Road chart in 1965, would have been proud. |
Posted By: AdvprosD
Date Posted: 02 April 2021 at 4:18pm
Not sure where I was when "Does Anybody Know..." was a two version release. The Jazz intro was introduced to me when the the Group Portrait set was in my hands. I don't think I've ever heard any version that didn't have the talking in the break. I'm going to have to look for that one. ------------- <Dave> Someone please tell I-Heart Radio that St. Louis is not known as The Loo! |