amii stewart--knock on wood
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Topic: amii stewart--knock on wood
Posted By: edtop40
Subject: amii stewart--knock on wood
Date Posted: 17 November 2004 at 3:58pm
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anyone know where i can find the 45 version of the song
"knock on wood" by amii stewart.....the 45 face says that the 45 version on ariola america 7736 is the "short stereo" version running 3:40 in length......BUT.....the 45 runs only 3:30 in length....the only place i see a 3:30 version is on an import cd titled "the no 1 classic pop album"....which is out of print......does anyone have this cd in their possession?.... ------------- edtop40 |
Replies:
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 17 November 2004 at 4:40pm
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According to Pat's book, the 45 version has appeared on two U.S. CD releases:
1) VA - Then Totally 1 Oldies (Vaese Sarabande 302066219) 2) VA - Disco Classics (Varese Sarabande 302066465) The run time for both clocks in at 3:37. |
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 17 November 2004 at 4:43pm
| Oh... Just in case anyone might be wondering, the "VA" abbreviation indicates that a CD is a Various Artist compilation. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 6:54pm
| I only own a promo 45 for this. One side has a listed time of (3:40), but an actual time of (3:37). This would seem to be the same version that appears on the two Varese V/A CDs that Todd points out above. This side of my promo does say "Short Stereo", like Ed's stock copy does, but clearly doesn't run (3:30). Ed, do you have deadwax info for your stock copy? And, given the confusion here, could someone else possibly time their stock 45 for us, and post their findings? My deadwax for this side is "7736 - AS SHORT 1A". The other side of my promo 45 says "Disco Stereo", has a listed time of (3:45), but an actual time of (3:58). Unfortunately, a version with this length does not appear on any of the many CDs for this song in the database. Deadwax for this side is "PRO 7736 AS SHORT DISCO - 1A." |
Posted By: bdpop
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 7:24pm
| Is the intro on the short disco version the same as on the 12" and LP? |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 11:57am
| Just picked up a stock 45 on this one. Listed is 3:40; actual is 3:37. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 12:05pm
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bdpop wrote:Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 12:35pm
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Jim, deadwax on the stock 45 for this is: 7736 AS SHORT
Also labeled as Short Stereo. |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 1:01pm
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Now, let me throw something into the fire. While on a trip to NY years ago, I was listening to WPLJ, where Scott Shannon and Todd Pettengill were doing their usual Friday feature "Flush The Format." One of the tunes played was "Knock On Wood"--which had the drum intro (not the electronic intro), but had the edit in the "you better knock, knock, knock, knock on wood, babe" refrain. The source was clearly vinyl (although it may have been on cart).
Which leads me to wonder whether there was more than one 45 version for this, either promo or commercial. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 18 December 2007 at 1:55pm
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I was just able to hear a copy of the "Disco Short" version, which should probably be added as a song note to the database since this special DJ edit is not mentioned. (Pat, please see Jim's post above for deadwax and timing info.)
The "Disco Short" can be edited from the version on Disco Fever (Razor & Tie 2-CD set), and I'm assuming also from those other two "edit of LP version" CDs that also run (4:49). Essentially, you have to slow the speed of that version down by exactly 2% and edit off the first 27.8 seconds. (The promo 45 version starts with the snare hit, rather than on the first note of a measure.) Also, chop off everything from 3:58.6 to the end. Create a 20 second fade out, and you have the promo 45 version. I can't say for sure how this promo version compares to the LP version, but the edits on the Disco Fever version (if there are any) match up with the 45. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 18 December 2007 at 2:26pm
This is exactly how the "neither" version on Pure Disco sounds, although there is a bad tape squealing noise throughout. |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 18 December 2007 at 5:50pm
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Hi All - this wasn't mentioned here that i noticed, altho may have been elsewhere - but for those interested the cd appearances of the 45 version of "Knock On Wood" are mastered from vinyl. From what i heard the master could not be located through normal channels.
For years i found it a little annoying everywhere it showed up on cd it was always some sort of edit of the LP version intro. Oh, and for fans of the song I found an interesting version on an old vinyl Canadian V/A comp which has a section in the end choruses that was edited out of the US LP version. Once you hear it you can hear in the American version where the edit is. -Mark M |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 11 February 2009 at 6:51pm
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It appears that I'm on a disco-songs-that-peaked-in-April-1979 kick (see the http://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4579&PN=1 - "Heart Of Glass" thread ), so I thought I'd dissect Amii Stewart's "Knock On Wood".
What a mess! I started with the commercial 45, Ariola Records America 7736, labeled as "Short", printed 3:40, actual 3:37. The deadwax reads "7736 AS SHORT" and possibly an "I" or an "X" following that. It has a BPM of 144.0 at the beginning and 143.7 at the end. (My software program reads it as "143.7".) The intro to the commercial 45 has the synth "fly-over" going first right-to-left, then left-to-right. The instrumentation starts at 0:05, the first break with no instrumentation is at 0:57, the second break is at 1:44, there are 4 complete "think I better knock knock knock on wood"'s from 1:57 to 2:12, then a 4-beat drum fill, then the bridge. The fade starts on the downbeat at 3:26 and runs about 32 beats until silence at 3:37. Next, I dug out Amii Stewart's Knock On Wood LP, Ariola SW 50054, printed 6:13, actual 6:09. The left/right channels are reversed, compared to the 45. The "fly-over" intro is absent, and instead there's a 92-beat drum intro for the first 40 seconds. The 0:40 mark on the LP version compares to the 0:05 mark on the 45. The LP is much slower than the 45, with 139.5 BPM on the intro and outro and around 139.0 BPM in the middle. (Software reads "139.1".) That about a 3.2% or 3.3% difference, which is huge. The first break falls at 1:34, the second break falls at 2:22, and there are 8 complete "think I better knock knock knock on wood"'s from 2:37 to 3:05. At 5:14, the song goes back to the drum-only portion that began the song. The fadeout is roughly 32 beats long and runs from 5:54 to silence at 6:09. Then, I hauled out the 12" single. I can't tell if it's a promo release or a commercial single - it's got a yellow label, has a release number "PRO 7736", and has a neato generic Ariola cardboard sleeve that says "THE TWELVE-INCHER" at the bottom. The sound quality on this 12" is astounding! Both sides are labeled "Side A", which isn't very helpful. One side is labeled "Fast Disco", matrix number PRO 7736 A/S, printed 6:10, actual 6:07. The tempo is 141.2 on the intro, about 140.6 in the middle, and 141.2 on the outro. (Software reads "140.8".) This is the album version, sped up by 1.2%. No other difference. The left/right channels are the same as the LP, and the opposite of the 45. The other side is labeled "Slow Disco", matrix number PRO 7736 A/S RE-1, printed 6:13, actual 6:12. The tempo is 139.3 on intro, about 138.5 in the middle, and 139.3 on the outro. (Software reads "138.8".) This is the album version, slowed down by 0.2%, which is insignificant and is well within the tolerances of a lot of late-'70s-era tape machines. The "slow disco" version is effectively the album version. The left/right channels are the same as the LP, and the opposite of the 45. We know that the fly-over intro is lost to history, and that the only versions of that on CD are taken from vinyl. The only versions on CD taken from tape either have the drum-only intro from the album/12" versions, or have a ridiculous re-recording of the intro (see below). The first version to appear on CD was a sped-up early fade of the LP version. This runs 144.3-143.6 BPM (beginning-to-end), and so is the proper 45 tempo. These runs about 4:49. The left/right channels match the LP and are the opposite of the 45.
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Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 11 February 2009 at 10:08pm
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Ron, you really need to find a hobby. ;)
Great job on the info! You didn't specifically mention it, so perhaps your 12-inch sleeve didn't http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/YahShure/AmiiStewart12-inchsleeve.jpg - come with the sticker that mine has. It's really dark, and even with considerable lightening, it's not that clear in the photo, but under the title/artist, it reads "Dee Jay Consultant Rusty Garner" and "PRO 7736". Being as how several Prism promo 45s I have from the same period have the same yellow label, I'd say that it's pretty likely that this 12-inch is a promo as well. We were going to do a Picture Disc Weekend at WJON in early '79, but the PD canceled it after many labels had already sent giveaways. I still have fifteen (!) copies of the http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/YahShure/AmiiStewartpicturedisc12-inch001.jpg - picture disc 12-inch single (shown with the original box.) Each copy is sealed in a transparent vinyl sleeve, with a sticker on the lower left corner. The catalog number is PRP 7736, with the 6:10 version on side 1 and "When You Are Beautiful" on side 2. BTW, one of my fellow jocks/collectors and I each took two copies of the Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits picture disc double-LP set to the St. Cloud Musicland and traded them for one copy each of the then-new MCA UK import The Complete Buddy Holly boxed LP set. It was win-win... and yet I still have too many of those Manilow sets to this day. :) |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 11 February 2009 at 11:53pm
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Nice picture disc! Never seen that before in my life. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 6:28am
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Me neither! I do have the Manilow GH picture disc, though!
I'm pretty sure this will be the last of the monstrous threads for a while... :) |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 3:48pm
Hi Ron! This last version you mention, from the description sounds like an edit of a 1985 U.K. 12" Remix... sort of a re-issue for club play. Says on it "NEW REMIX" and lists the title as "Knock On Wood / Ash 48". It has some extra percussion and is remixed as you describe. I'd gues they used that for this V/A comp. The 12" lists the time as 7:46. -MM |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 28 March 2012 at 8:00am
I heard this song on the radio this morning, and they used the awful sounding version with the ringing throughout. It made me revisit this thread, and I have some new info for Pat. The CDs listed above actually contain the "Disco Short" promo 45 version, except that they run 2% too fast and fade about 4 seconds earlier than the true promo 45. The speed and early fade is what accounts for the 9 second difference between the promo 45's (3:58) run time and the CD, but the edits exactly match the 45. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 28 March 2012 at 8:15am
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Here's one more discovery. I have a promo CD set from a Canadian company that has a 5:40 version of "Knock On Wood," and this version does have the same "fly-over" intro as the 45! It is clearly a tape source, too.
The company that produced the CDs (ERG Music, "Knock Out Hits") is targeted at professional DJs, and they do not have any special access to master tapes. In fact, tons of tracks on their discs are straight from vinyl. That means this tape-sourced 5:40 version must be on CD somewhere in the world. Does anyone know where it may have originated from? Also, would this version perhaps be an original LP version (similar to other disco songs where the 12" version replaced the LP version on later pressings)? ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 30 March 2012 at 7:55pm
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Crap, I have this on a Varese Vintage comp that says it's
the 45 version. I also have my Ariola 45 somewhere, but it was not a two-sided single. I'll have to dig it out now to see if the tempos match. I know the edit is correct on the CD I have. ------------- |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 02 April 2012 at 1:53pm
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Last known 45 issue of the Short version of Knock On Wood
was an Arista Flashback reissue 45 sometime before 1984. (Flyover intro) Wonder if there is a single master in the Sony vault for this tune? ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 7:51pm
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Sorry to rerevisit this, but I think there's a small issue with the Disco Years Volume 3 version (in addition to speed and fade considerations).
It sounds to me upon taking multiple listens that one drum beat is missing from the beginning. Especially after I looked at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL8pvQEn4CA The YT link was uploaded to 45cat, and I saw it as I was trying to find a scan of the promo label. My hearing may not be what it used to be, so I'd like someone to corroborate my thought. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: Fastphilly
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 1:54pm
| Here is a link to the promo 45 short version spinning on Youtube. Excellent audio as well :)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcV7TToOVDs |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 20 October 2018 at 9:02pm
Sorry again to threadbump, but while rifling through YouTube I found this video labeled as being the "7" Edit" from Knock On Wood: The Anthology (which is available digitally but may not be on an actual disc). This version matches the version I described above (drum intro, edit in the "knock, knock, knock on wood, babe" refrain). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMUNZKiRiwA It also jibes with the version I remember hearing on radio in 1979 (drum intro instead of electronic). ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 21 October 2018 at 10:24am
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Hey Doug, I just sent you dubs of the promo 45 and stock 45 versions. Please let us know what you find! ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 21 October 2018 at 11:00am
Much appreciated, Aaron. And the versions are the way you and Ron describe them (promo has the drum intro but no edit on the "you better knock, knock, knock on wood, babe" refrain, stock 45 [which was the B-side of the promo] has the electronic intro and the edit in the refrain). Still, I can't shake the feeling that the version I've described was in release somewhere--maybe as an alternate promo or alternate stock single. I could be way off base too. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 21 October 2018 at 11:47am
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I haven't looked, but are there any other promo 45s that don't match the
one I have? ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 22 October 2018 at 6:04am
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User smallworld sent me a YT link that indicates the version I've described is the UK 45. So the question is if that version made its way stateside in some form, and that's what some radio stations played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyhPqnN5AEw ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 22 October 2018 at 12:44pm
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My original U.S. Ariola 45 starts with the electronic
noise, and that's also what I heard on the radio in 1979. ------------- |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 18 April 2021 at 6:37pm
Sorry to bump this again, but is it possible there was more than one promo single version of this? The reason I ask is because this post in Discogs: https://www.discogs.com/Amii-Stewart-Knock-On-Wood/release/6 532032 indicates that both sides are identical except for the intro (which means one side runs (3:45) as actually stated on the record label, the other runs (3:40) and was the same as the stock single). There's also a YouTube post that corroborates that. Yet all the promos available to the class have run (3:58). The 13 second difference is in the refrain (and whether it's edited or not). Does anyone have a US promo that does run (3:45) on one side (the Disco side, not the Short side)? I just want to make sure I'm not totally crazy. I mean, I am, but that's besides the point. :) ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 6:01am
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My copy of the promo has a listed time of 3:45 but an actual time of 3:58. I have it dubbed to my hard drive and can confirm this. My guess is that the Discogs note is not correct about the versions being the same except for the intro. It's probably a case where someone didn't do a very careful comparison. That's not to say there isn't another promo edit, but I don't typically trust Discogs notes to be accurate when it comes to claims of specific versions. I only trust this forum on those details! ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 6:33am
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I getcha, Aaron.
However, this YouTube user corroborates what Discogs says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk1cRatd24c
And that note matches up with my recollection of the version I heard on the radio (which also matches the UK 45 version). So that's why I'm asking if anyone has a promo that actually does run (3:45) on the Disco side. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 7:00am
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No disrespect to Cletus Hunnicutt (the YouTube poster), but I'm guessing he's no Doug Scherer when it comes to noting such small differences in edits. Yeah, there's a 5 second difference in the printed time on the label, but I'll be curious to know if he responds to you and actually times the "disco" side of his promo. I'll wager a bet it's the same one I have! ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 7:03am
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As a side note, have you confirmed that the UK 45 has the exact edit you remember? If so, I suppose it's possible your local station played it from there.
EDIT: Yes, the UK 45 does match your recollection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyhPqnN5AEw ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 7:55am
Thank you. I think. :)
Considering the station in question was the legendary Big 89, WLS in Chicago, I don't think they needed to stoop to getting the UK 45 version for airplay. However, I did bring up that WPLJ in NY played it during one of their "Flush the Format" Fridays and it was also the "drum open/edit on the refrain" version. Scott and Todd had been known to grab music from WABC's old cart library (WABC had gone to talk 15 or so years earlier but kept a lot of the music) for the gimmick (and you could clearly hear a few crackles, so it wasn't from CD or hard drive, so it's a pretty safe assumption that's what they did there). ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 8:17am
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Hopefully you can track it down, Doug. You also have me curious about the possibility of another promo. I'm sure you've already considered yet another possibility that it was a custom edit. Maybe the program director liked the drum intro but thought the refrain was too long. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 02 August 2022 at 2:22am
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Aaron, the 5:40 flyover-intro version you mentioned 10 years ago might be what the digital release Knock On Wood: The Anthology (2016) calls the German Edit With Intro (5:38).
I'm told the complete version probably originated on the Italian 12" (printed duration 5:45), and the first European LPs all featured a slightly early fade of it: https://www.discogs.com/release/96034-Amii-Stewart-Knock-On-Wood - the German LP ("5:39") https://www.discogs.com/release/14901617-Amii-Stewart-Knock-On-Wood - the Dutch LP ("5:39") https://www.discogs.com/release/8001048-Amii-Stewart-Knock-On-Wood - the Scandivanian LP ("5:39") https://www.discogs.com/release/8541141-Amii-Stewart-Amii-Stewart - The Japanese LP says ("5:37") (Later releases had the drum-intro version, although I have yet to confirm if they all used the US version of that or what.) An almost complete version (5:38) was on this French compilation: https://www.discogs.com/release/6482038-Various-Le-Top-De-La-Disco-24-N1-Originaux-Extended-Versions - Le top de la disco (2xCD version, Carrere, 1989). Duration misprinted on the release as 6:23. The end is slightly cut off though, and the fade might begin a little too early. A slightly early fade (5:33) was on some French compilation CDs: Culture Dance vol. 1 (Versailles, 1993) Dance Story 2 (Versailles, 1994) Flash Back (Versailles, 1995) |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 02 August 2022 at 4:06am
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Tricky question here:
Can anyone help me determine what speed/tempo the track was originally recorded at in the studio by determining actual notes & keys? I remember when the promo 12" came out I appreciated a choice in tempo to facilitate mixing in with other records (probably the idea of Rusty Garner, who championed Club DJs), but I always was curious as to what tempo/pitch it was recorded. Thanks in advance for any hypotheses! Andy |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 02 August 2022 at 6:22am
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It's surely in a major key, so the first horn notes, which are close to the note "A", surely are supposed to be exactly "A", not A-flat or B-flat, which would have a moody/sad feel.
So, in a frequency analysis view, there should be peaks or bright lines at 220 Hz (A2), 440 (A4), 880 (A5), 1760 (A6), and so on. The center of the hump or line is what you want to try to get to be at those frequencies. For example, if you see A4 is actually centered at 433, divide it into 440 to get ~1.0161, which means it's 1.61% too slow (by the https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html - A4=440 standard ). To sound as it was recorded, it needs a speedup of that much, e.g. reinterpret the sample rate as 44813 instead of 44100, and resample back to 44100 (or use whatever speed adjustment option you prefer). Anyway, some more research follows. Knock On Wood: The Anthology contains these versions (all links go to YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7YGsKviYr0 - German Edit with Intro (5:38) as mentioned above; and I see they've added 'Album' to the YouTube title. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLS57N4kUN0 - 7" Edit (3:45) this has the edited chorus break and matches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyhPqnN5AEw - the UK 45 as played by humanjukebox45s on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s95pTCDbIJ8 - Long Disco Version (6:20) has a shortened drum intro, among other edits, and matches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zMf62OZHKE - a German reissue LP(?) as played by Sψren Jensen on YouTube. Exactly where this appears on original-era vinyl, I'm not sure, because on Discogs, all the LPs that don't say 5:39 say 6:13 just like the US LP. But maybe some of them actually play this? The European 45s I found on YouTube do not have the edited chorus break. The exact fade-out point on each one varies, I'm told, and I noticed it myself, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncc-PdfyAh0 - the Spanish 45 ends 4½ seconds earlier than the UK 45, and the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=712p34DX0sk - The 2nd German 45 ("Original US-Hit Version") just keeps on going until 4:30. I'm wondering if there are some pressings of the UK 45 with the unedited chorus break; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibf_VFtHA2Q - someone seems to play such a 45 on YouTube, but the atrocious audio quality makes me wonder if he actually swapped the audio in from elsewhere. |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 02 August 2022 at 6:06pm
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crapfromthe past mentions on the LP version there's a 92-beat drum intro for
the first 40 seconds. I have this version, but I recently came across a version running a bit longer, 6:20 with only an 11 second drum intro. This version is on the 1997 UK 2-CD set "The Hits & The Remixes". Anyone know when this version originated? Edit: After posting this, I just noticed that earlier today mjb50 mentioned this version in his post! ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 02 August 2022 at 6:38pm
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These versions are a real mess. I'm going to attempt to sort all of these out... Give me a day or two... ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 02 August 2022 at 9:16pm
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I'll give the conclusion first: there are a boatload of different versions out there. What are the definitive versions? I'm leaning toward the UK 7" and the UK 12" versions, but that's just my preference.
The US versions are totally bonkers compared to the UK versions. (Different speeds, weird edits.) I'm sure that this post will raise more questions than it answers, but here goes... Intro Ends with the first downbeat of the first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal, sorta). The longest intro is 92 beats long. It breaks down sequentially as follows:
The UK 45 and UK 12 inch single use the last 28 beats of the 92-beat intro, as follows:
From downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock" All versions have the first two verses as being 272 beats long. Timing for the first two verses:
Includes several instances of 8-beat portion in which background singers sing "think I better knock knock knock on wood", followed by a 4-beat drum fill For timing purposes, beat "1" of the 8-beat portion falls on the first "knock" of the three "knocks". These versions have eight repetitions of the 8-beat portion, following by the 4-beat drum fill:
These versions include 296 beats, from the downbeat following the 4-beat drum fill (at end of first chorus) to the downbeat at which the instrumentation ends abruptly and becomes just the drum beat:
The UK 12 inch single and the Ben Liebrand Edit each include 416 beats from the end of the 4-beat drum fill (at end of first chorus) to the downbeat at which the instrumentation ends abruptly and becomes just the drum beat. It's found on:
The UK 12 inch single has a 108-beat outro, as follows:
This US LP and 12 inch single outro is a literal repeat of the US LP and 12 inch single drumbeat intro, but extending longer to a fade. It's the same pieces of tape, same weird sequence as listed above, etc. The drum beat outro is found on:
------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 5:07am
Thank you for the analysis & education! Did you ever get a chance to check any of your versions to see what's closest to "proper" pitch? Thanks! Andy |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 5:10am
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To Ron (CrapFromThePast):
Thanks for your UK/US analysis! Andy |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 10:09am
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The presentation's a little better in this post. If anyone needs the details of the 92-beat and 96-beat intros, they're still posted above.
UK 45 version (about 3:46) Runs at about 138.1 BPM (according to software) Intro [ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 28 beats from 0:00 to 0:12 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:12 to 2:11 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 36 beats from 2:11 to 2:26 (four repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 2:26 to 3:20 Fade starts 32 beats into second chorus at 3:34 Fade ends at about 3:46 This version appears on PolyGram's Pure Disco (1996), but there's a metallic ringing from about 1:30 onward and severe tape drag. Avoid. The same analog transfer is used on:
Runs at about 141.2 BPM (according to software) Intro [ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 28 beats from 0:00 to 0:12 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:12 to 2:08 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 52 beats from 2:08 to 2:30 (six repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 2:30 to 3:23 Instrumentation becomes just drumbeat at 5:27 Cold ending at 6:13 US 45 version ("short") (printed 3:40, actual 3:37) Runs at about 143.8 BPM (according to software) Intro ["flyover"] - Ends at 0:05 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:05 to 1:59 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 36 beats from 1:59 to 2:14 (four repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 2:14 to 3:06 Fade starts 48 beats into second chorus at 3:26 Fade ends at about 3:37 This version appears on Varese Sarabande's Then 1 Totally Oldies (2001), where it's taken from vinyl. It has a reasonable EQ, no evidence of severe added noise reduction, and seems to have a little added compression/limiting. It's acceptable on this disc; it's certainly better than not having the US 45 version at all. It runs 143.6 BPM here, according to software. US promo 45 version ("disco") (printed 3:45, actual 3:58) Runs at about 141.0 BPM (according to software; assuming that Aaron's version is at correct speed) Intro [starts with a snare (!), ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 27 beats from 0:00 to 0:12 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:12 to 2:08 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 68 beats from 2:08 to 2:37 (eight repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 2:37 to 3:29 Fade starts 24 beats into second chorus at 3:40 Fade ends at about 3:58 This version is actually the most common on CD compilations. The version on Rhino's The Disco Years Vol. 3 (1992) runs about 1.9% faster than the promo 45 (assuming that Aaron's recreation is correct speed). The tail of the fade is about 8 beats shorter than Aaron's recreation. The same analog transfer is used on:
Runs at about 138.8 BPM (according to software) Intro [ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 92 beats from 0:00 to 0:40 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:40 to 2:38 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 68 beats from 2:38 to 3:07 (eight repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 3:07 to 4:01 Instrumentation becomes just drumbeat at 5:15 Fade begins at 5:55 Fade ends at 6:12 I don't have the US LP version on CD. The closest I can get is a version that is sped way up (about 3.7% compared to the US LP speed) and faded early (from about 4:43 to 4:50):
Runs at about 140.8 BPM (according to software) Intro [ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 92 beats from 0:00 to 0:39 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:39 to 2:36 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 68 beats from 2:36 to 3:04 (eight repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 3:04 to 3:57 Instrumentation becomes just drumbeat at 5:11 Fade begins at 5:50 Fade ends at 6:07 Ben Liebrand Edit (6:51) - didn't exist in 1978/79 Runs at about 141.5 BPM (according to software) Intro [ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 96 beats from 0:00 to 0:41 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:41 to 2:36 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 52 beats from 2:36 to 2:58 (six repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 2:58 to 3:51 Instrumentation becomes just drumbeat at 5:55 Fade begins at 6:25 Fade ends at 6:51 This version is on the European multi-disc collection Grand 12 Inches Vol. 5 (2008). Sound is very nice here. Spain (and several other countries) 45 version (about 3:57) Runs at about 139.1 BPM (according to software) Intro [ends with downbeat of first instrumentation (with a little synth sound that could sorta pass off as a crash cymbal)] - 28 beats from 0:00 to 0:12 First and second verses [from downbeat of first instrumentation to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 272 beats from 0:12 to 2:10 First chorus [from downbeat of syllable of first "knock" to downbeat at end of 4-beat drum fill] - 36 beats from 2:10 to 2:32 (six repetitions of 8-beat portion followed by 4-beat drum fill) Third verse [from end of 4-beat drum fill to downbeat of syllable of first "knock"] - 124 beats from 2:32 to 3:26 Fade starts 32 beats into second chorus at 3:40 Fade ends at about 3:57 I have this on Connoisseur Collection UK's 5-CD 100 Dance Hits Of The '70s (1988). Sound is tin and hollow on this CD. 1985 remix There's no confusing with any of the earlier versions; it sounds like 1985. I have it on Disky's 8-CD Wow That Was The '70s (1999). ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 5:03pm
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Good stuff Ron, but there's still that version mjb50 and I mentioned - the Long
Disco Version (6:20) that has made it to at least one CD and a couple of digital downloads. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 5:43pm
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I don't know if that version ever existed back in 1978/79.
There have been plenty of modern-day edits of the various versions, like the Ben Liebrand edit I mentioned above. I verified that all of the versions I listed above really existed on vinyl back then (except the Ben Liebrand edit). I got as far as I could on YouTube videos showing the actual record playing. Not saying that it doesn't exist, but only that I can't confirm that it exists. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 7:02pm
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I'm still looking into that 6:20 version. It is definitely on some of the Knock on Wood albums, as I've heard it now on two vinyl LP rips. When it first appeared, though, I don't know.
It is identical to the UK 12" version, just 1.36% slower (comparing the 12" to the Anthology), with a fade ending that goes 5 beats beyond where the UK 12" cuts off. I'm told by a forum lurker that the Hansa label was notorious for constantly re-editing their product, e.g. releasing four different versions of Boney M. Nightflight to Venus album in 1978 alone. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 7:04pm
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Frank Farian was certainly paying attention. There are four different versions of Milli Vanilli's Girl You Know It's True CD. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: LunarLaugh
Date Posted: 03 August 2022 at 11:31pm
Not to nitpick, but it seems you may be confusing "flat" with "minor". Bb (B-flat) is still a major key so it would be rather easily placed in to a happy setting whereas Bm (B-minor) would have more of a more somber or moody feel comparatively speaking. Chuck Berry's decidedly bouncy "My Ding-a-Ling" is in the key of Eb (E-flat), for example. If it were in Em (E- minor), it'd have a radically different feeling. ------------- https://thelunarlaugh.bandcamp.com/ - Listen to The Lunar Laugh! |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 04 August 2022 at 5:37am
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@LunarLaugh, you're absolutely right about the keys. I sure got that wrong. Oh, man, embarrassing! Thanks for the correction.
In my defense, I did have a moment of "wait...is that right?" when I was writing it, but then I was like, "Whatever, I'm sure someone will say something if it isn't." Now I want to hear "My Ding-a-Ling" in a minor key. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 04 August 2022 at 7:22am
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In the late '80s, Dr. Demento used to play a Chuck Berry parody by Steve Layland & the Ruined Choir called "Johnny B Minor", which is "Johnny B Goode" played in a minor key.
As long as I don't have to sit through "My Ding-A-Ling" ever again... (Just my opinion. Others may insist that "My Ding-A-Ling" is the greatest pop song of all time.) ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: LunarLaugh
Date Posted: 04 August 2022 at 8:50am
I played "My Ding-A-Ling" to death when I was 10 years old and thought it was the funniest thing in the world. Nowadays, the novelty has mostly worn off. Mostly. ;) ------------- https://thelunarlaugh.bandcamp.com/ - Listen to The Lunar Laugh! |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 05 August 2022 at 10:24am
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To answer the question about the "ideal" speed...
Just looking at the beginning of the song, the closest you can get to the original performance pitch is the regular US 12" (Long Disco) version, which only runs 0.27% slow, not enough to even hear, a difference of only 0.4 BPM, by my counter. (This is based on DjPaulT's rip from 2012; I don't have the actual record to confirm.) The edited US 12" versions as found on the CDs The Disco Years vol. 3 (which Ron says is an early fade of the US promo 45 "disco" version) and on Pottery Barn Disco (an even earlier fade with 0:29 shaved off the intro) both run 0.66% fast, which I can hear, but just barely; it's not bad. The UK 12" runs about the same speed. Meanwhile, the US 45 runs 0.79% fast. Other versions I tested were well outside of this range, usually on the slow side by 1.6% or more. |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 06 August 2022 at 6:15am
Thanks for the info. So according to your math and Ron's handiwork "Knock On Wood" from the studio was near 142.67 BPM. Or is my algebra out-of-whack? Thanks for the guidance. Andy |
Posted By: mjb50
Date Posted: 06 August 2022 at 6:38am
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Yes, that sounds right.
But keep in mind that songs with live drummers, even disco songs, are notoriously variable in tempo. Plus there's sometimes speed variations due to tape drag and edits. What we are reporting is what our counter tells us is the average tempo across the entire song. Also, these automatic BPM counters don't always agree. I use foo_bpm in foobar2000, and it has a lot of options that can affect what it detects. There's a margin of error compared to whatever Ron uses; my numbers are usually slightly off from his, so I usually don't mention them. |