Carpenters 45/LP differences
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Topic: Carpenters 45/LP differences
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Subject: Carpenters 45/LP differences
Date Posted: 09 November 2010 at 7:05pm
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Hi People,
Any Carpenters version fanatics out there? I own the original Netherlands 'Ultimate Collection' CD set which has all the ALBUM mixes of all their Hot 100 hits. Can anyone tell me what singles mixes are different from the album mixes of all their charters? I am aware of the following: "Yesterday Once More" has a motorcycle on the LP version; "Top Of The World" was remixed & rerecorded for single release; "Close To You" has a false end (but I think it's the same mix); "Calling Occupants" can't successfully be edited to the 45 version; "Only Yesterday" has a longer fade on the LP (but I think it's the same mix). Am I correct here? Am I forgetting any other differences? Thank you! Andy |
Replies:
Posted By: Roscoe
Date Posted: 09 November 2010 at 7:19pm
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Mix differences (in addition to the ones you noted):
"Ticket to Ride": Different mix on truncated intro "I Won't Last A Day Without You": Additional guitar on 45, also sped up "Solitaire" (minor mix differences) "Please Mr. Postman" (minor mix differences) "I Need To Be In Love": Different mix on truncated intro "A Kind Of Hush" 45 runs faster than LP, but same mix. If I remember right, "Those Good Old Dreams" also had a different mix for the 45, but that 45 mix was then used for CD reissues of the Made In America album. Those are the ones that come to mind. |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 09 November 2010 at 9:08pm
| Some of the mono DJ 45s are slightly different on the early 45s. Both "Superstar" and "Goodbye to Love" are sped up on the mono sides, others probably are also but I haven't checked them all. These early 45s sound like dedicated mono mixes with EQ for AM radio. On the stereo "Goodbye to Love" 45 for example the guitar solo in the middle break fades down in time for Karen to start singing again, but on the mono DJ side it barely fades down at all. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 10 November 2010 at 9:48am
Andrew, when you say 'all the album mixes' of the top 100 hits, do you mean not one has been remixed or has a re-recorded piano? Does "Goodbye To Love" start with the bare vocal ("I'll say good") AND not have the re-recorded piano? Also, there seem to be several 'Ultimate Collection' CDs in Europe, including the UK. Can you give the label catalog # info for yours, and does it say "Made in the Netherlands" on the outside? |
AndrewChouffi wrote:Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 10 November 2010 at 10:22am
Yeah, that's been known for some time, that several years ago the Netherlands "Ultimate Collection" contained the original album mixes, not the Richard Carpenter remixes. But so did the last round of US remasters of the original albums. |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 10 November 2010 at 10:40am
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Hi everybody!
Thanks for all the info; keep it coming!! To 'EdisonLite': The Netherlands CD is published 2006 Universal Music catalog# 983 584-5. the website address is www.universalmusic.nl This was a cool double-disc (plus bonus CD) issue that had all their Hot 100 charters & a couple of European charters that was assembled from the then-recent Richard Carpenter US remasters of the ORIGINAL ALBUM MIXES! Apparently Mr. Carpenter had the release pulled quickly because he didn't authorize it (normal global contract procedure). I thought it was the "holy grail" until I realized many singles were different from the original album versions & the Carpenters were the quintessential 70s SINGLES act (that is a lofty compliment). Yes, no re-recorded piano, digital reverb, et al. Andy |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 02 April 2011 at 10:20pm
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Roscoe had indicated that the single mix of "Please Mr. Postman" contains
minor differences. From the website "http://www.grantguerrero.com/carpenters/singles.html": "... The backing vocals are all mixed to the center on the single, rather than being separated in stereo as on the album version. For many years, this single mix was only available on one very rare CD, the UK version of Yesterday Once More from 1984. It has subsequently been released as part of the limited-edition sets The Japanese Single Box and The 40th Anniversary Box Set (on the Sweet Sixteen disc)" This would warrant a database update, and also a search for that elusive track on one of those CDs. Anyone have it already? ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: Jody Thornton
Date Posted: 04 April 2011 at 12:49am
Now I have only heard one version ever for this song. They've all been in stereo. I take it that this is the "Single" mix? What did the original sound like? ------------- Cheers, Jody Thornton (Burlington, Ontario) |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 04 April 2011 at 1:18am
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"Sing" has an extra few bars on the 45 that were edited out
of the album version. The 45 mix of "Hurting Each Other" has the drums faded on the intro. All of the 45s up to about 1977 are drier (no added reverb). ------------- |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 5:02am
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Jody: Karen re-recorded her lead vocal, as well some other instruments were
re-recorded to "punch up" the song. The original is on the 1972 LP "A Song for You". Hits Man: regarding "Sing", I've never heard that the 45 is longer than the LP. And "Hurting Each Other", I didn't know about the drums. DO you have 45 dubs to share of these? ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 3:23pm
I do indeed! ------------- |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 09 April 2011 at 11:19pm
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David, your PM box ix full. ------------- |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 11 April 2011 at 10:06pm
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Hits Man: ok, it's clear. thanks. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 12 April 2011 at 5:23am
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yes, after listening to the version on your website Hitsman, indeed "Hurting
Each Other" is missing the drum that begins at :22 of the LP. If your source is indeed a 45, then the database needs updating for this tune. The song did precede the "A Song For You" LP by about 6 months, so with Mr. C, anything was possible! ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 12 April 2011 at 9:42am
| David, I have the original vinyl 45 of Hurting Each Other, the original vinyl LP "A Song for You" and the cd of "A Song For You" and I do not hear any drums on any of the above starting at the :22 mark. |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 12 April 2011 at 10:17am
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well, that's great to know.
My source for the song is the 1985 double CD "Yesterday Once More", which has no indication in the database of it being different. On this, I hear a bass drum beat starting at :22. It would seem that THIS version is an "alternate" then, but not the same as the "added piano track" version. Pat, could you check your "Yesterday Once More" CD? what a mess Mr. C has created... ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 12 April 2011 at 10:35am
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Regarding "Hurting Each Other" I do hear a drum on the 1985 double cd of "Yesterday Once More" and on the remastered 1988 cd of the same name David.
For Todd, I do not hear an opening breath on the original 45 of "Hurting Each Other" nor on the LP or cd of "A Song for You" but I do hear the breath on both the 1985 and 1988 cd's "Yesterday Once More" |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 12 April 2011 at 8:26pm
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Pat, can you please check the other couple of CDs for Hurting Each Other. I
have a chance to buy "The SIngles 1969-1973" used here in Thailand, and I don't want it unless it contains the original version. thanks. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 13 April 2011 at 7:09am
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Here's a question on another tune--the 45 of "Bless The Beasts And Children" (which I believe was the B-side of "Superstar"). What's the exact time of the 45, and is there any echo on Karen's lead vocal on the 45, or was that on the LP version? ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 13 April 2011 at 6:32pm
| I have to do a little backtracking here David. There are two versions of "A Song for You" on cd and the original mixes and 45 version are an the "A Song For You" cd with catalog number 828393511. All other cd's in the database contain a remixed version and include a breath at the beginning of the song. |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 16 April 2011 at 12:49am
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glad we got "Hurting Each Other" sorted. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 1:02am
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3-CD Carpenters Complete Singles As & Bs box set to be
released by PBS as a pledge thing. First two sides are mono single edits, but still trying to find out whether they used tape sources for everything. (The Japan box used disc dubs for "Santa Claus is Comin' to Town" and "Calling Occupants" and used the stereo album versions for the first single.) http://theseconddisc.com/2015/08/24/exclusive-its-yesterday-once-more-carpenters-complete-singles-released-for-public-television/ - Carpenters Complete Singles |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 6:22am
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Nice find, Brian! Keep us posted if you find out any more information about the sources and mixes. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 9:01pm
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Why are they using MONO single edits? I thought all
commercial and promo 45's for the Carpenters were in stereo. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 24 August 2015 at 9:38pm
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No, their first single, Ticket to Ride b/w Your
Wonderful Paradise, was mono. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 25 August 2015 at 11:25pm
| So Brian, when you say "first two sides", you didn't mean first 2 discs, just the first 2 cuts? That makes more sense. I hope they use the true single version of "Occupants" and from tape, and I also hope none of these single versions have Richard's tinkering. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 26 August 2015 at 2:56am
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Yes, I meant first two single sides; in other words, the
first two tracks. |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 23 October 2015 at 5:38pm
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Did anyone pick this up? I'm wondering how good the
sound quality is. I know some of the tracks on the Japanese set were needle drops. |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 23 October 2015 at 6:16pm
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I have yet to get this PBS exclusive but this link takes you to not only the track listing but info on what sources were used by TJ Lubinsky and PBS for this box set.
http://carpenters.amcorner.com/album/carpenters-the-complete -singles ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 23 October 2015 at 7:09pm
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Yep, we finally have our answers. According to that,
it's all from the single tape masters except for "Ticket to Ride" and its B-side," which are 45 dubs. |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 23 October 2015 at 7:26pm
------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Oddbjorn
Date Posted: 26 October 2015 at 4:57pm
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I really loved to get this one but it seems like it will not be available for non-US people. ------------- OddNor |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 26 October 2015 at 7:15pm
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Yes, unfortunately PBS will not ship outside of the US. ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 18 December 2015 at 7:44pm
------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 18 December 2015 at 9:32pm
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There's a pretty thorough review on A&M Corner. "Calling
Occupants" is the same disc dub that was on the Japanese CD singles set, though they deny it's a disc dub. Allegedly "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" is from a tape source on this one, and "Mr. Guder" is allegedly the single edit. I don't have the PBS set, though. |
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 05 February 2016 at 3:23pm
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After much delay, I finally got my set yesterday.
As far as I can tell, all the Top 40 hits are the single versions, mixes, and speeds, with the exception of "Goodbye To Love", which is a bit slower than my promo 45 (I don't have a commercial 45). If "Calling Occupants" is a needledrop, then I am unable to detect any signs of it. There is an extremely unfair advantage to people north of the border. WNED, the PBS station in Buffalo, which gets most of its viewership from the southern Ontario region, accepts Canadian dollars at par, and the Canadian dollar is currently worth only about 70 cents. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 09 February 2016 at 11:17pm
| Does anyone know where this 3 CD set can be bought at a decent price? Do you have to watch PBS at the right time when they happen to be airing the special? I checked amazon (didn't find it there), and found 1 copy on ebay, but the 3 CD set sold for $175+. And really, I just want to get a WAV of the 3-second intro of "Calling Occupants" (single version), which apparently is finally from master tape. And I really don't want to pay $175+ for a 3-second segment. |
Posted By: eric_a
Date Posted: 10 February 2016 at 11:14pm
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It looks like you could get one from Iowa Public Television if you become a member at the $10/month level or $120 outright.
"Decent price" is up to you to decide, but it sounds like a good cause. http://iptv.org/friends/giftlist.cfm?i=C15101&type=CDs - Link to Carpenters |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 26 April 2016 at 9:12am
| I just added the Carpenters "Complete Singles" cd to the database and can report the quality overall is excellent. I found 2 flaws, one was the speed of "Goodbye To Love" which is slower than the original 45 and there was some noticeable tape hiss on the fade out to "For All We Know". Nice to hear these songs without the remixing done by Richard Carpenter over the years. |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 28 April 2016 at 9:06pm
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that's great to see "The Complete Singles" info. Note that "Please Mr.
Postman" is still missing a "45 mix" designation, as per my post of a while back (2011 April 02). Is it indeed different, or the same? ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 29 April 2016 at 10:47am
| Just listened to Please Mr. Postman again to compare it to what appears on the "Horizon" cd which is the parent album for this song. There is a mix difference with the 45 being narrower stereo on this new cd than what appears on the "Horizon" cd but I noticed a tambourine on the "Horizon" cd from 2:00 to 2:02 over the line "deliver the letter" that I do not hear on the new "Complete Singles" cd so I will leave it to the bloodhounds to determine if this is a remix on the "Horizon" cd or if there is really a 45 vs LP version here that no one has yet caught! |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 29 April 2016 at 12:48pm
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A while back, Ed was kind enough to send me a copy of
Please Mr. Postman from the Japanese Singles box to listen to. I hear NO tambourine over the "...deliver the letter" portion from 2:00-2:02 from the Japanese collection. |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 29 April 2016 at 7:01pm
| Correct, I hear no tambourine on the 45 or on the "Complete Singles" collection. The question deals with the parent album. |
Posted By: Glenpwood
Date Posted: 30 April 2016 at 10:22pm
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I just compared my original Horizon CD from the early nineties, my
original Horizon WLP vinyl, and the Complete Singles set I just got from PBS and none of them have tambourine at the "deliver de letter" point. Unless Pat's CD is the 1998 remaster which I do not have which is allegedly the original mixes. That Should match my LP though. Richard would have had plenty of time to make a new mix for the original album in 1975. It was released nearly six months after Postman rang in at number one... |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 1:44am
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With Pat's help I was able to compare the assorted
versions of this from the Horizon vinyl LP, the Cd re- issue of the LP, the promo 45, the stock 45 as well the Complete Singles Cd and the later remix. Pat has indeed uncovered a 45/LP version that no one has previously mentioned! What Pat thought was a tambourine is actually loud hi-hat hits in the right channel of the LP version from 2:00-2:02. Those same hi-hats in the 45 are mixed much lower and are panned to the center. Some other differences I noticed: The 45 mix is more narrow, and has all the vocals mixed in the center with mono reverb. The handclaps and hi-hats are mixed to the center. The strings that come in at about :30 only appear in the left channel. The kick-drum is mixed to the right channel. The Horizon LP mix is wider stereo, has some stereo vocals and stereo reverb. The handclaps and hi-hats are much louder and mixed to the right channel. The strings come in in both channels, and the kick drum is in the center. The vinyl Horizon LP and CD re-issue are the same. Then, there's the 1991 remix which is on a lot of CD's...this mix is similar to the LP mix but even wider stereo with wider mixed vocals and added stereo reverb. This is the only version I have heard in the last 25 years that I know of. The good news: the 45 mix apparently appears on CD for the first time in the Complete Singles CD. The BAD news: I'm very sorry to report that to my ears, it is a disc dub on this CD and it sounds a bit over- processed, like somebody used Adobe Audition's de-clicker on too high a setting, or used CEDAR on it. This shaved off all the top hi's in the music giving it a washed-out sound. It's also even narrower here than the actual stock 45 is. So, kudos for the producer knowing there was indeed a single mix and including it, but not-so-kudos for the disc dub. If they had just left the clicks in it at least it would have sounded right. [EDIT: Update! SEE BELOW] |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 11:52am
| With your expert ears, Mark, and knowing that the "Complete Singles" is also the first time ever the 45 mix of "Calling Occupants" has apparently appeared on CD from master tape (the Japanese CD singles box set includes the 45 mix but also was a disc dub) -- have you heard the version of "Occupants" on "Complete Singles" and used your expert ears to determine if that's a disc dub or a master tape? It's been reported to be a tape source (from people whose ears I completely trust) but I wanted to get your take on it, in case we're all missing something and it's also an overly processed Adobe or Cedar cleaning. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 4:49pm
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I have this CD, Mark, and there's nothing about "Please Mr. Postman" that sounds like a vinyl dub to my ears. When I do a "vocal cut" in Adobe Audition, I'm still left with plenty of reverb from the vocals, so it's definitely not mono vocal reverb on my copy. Are you sure your sources are properly labeled? ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 8:19pm
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Update! Ok, after hearing Aaron's copy of the Complete
Singles CD I discovered there was a technical issue with the copy Pat sent me so the audio flaws I was hearing were not really over-processed vinyl after all. So good news, this set really has the single mix from a clean tape source. So real kudos this time! Aaron, there is some ambient reverb that remains when you cancel the center but overall in the single mix most of the vocal reverb is in the center behind the vocals. In the LP and later mix it's much more of a stereo reverb you hear in both channels. Also the CD master is a bit narrower than the stock 45 but one can widen it a little in Audition or similar software, if so desired. Edison: I can't speak to "Calling Occupants" as I do not actually own the set, but perhaps Aaron could chime in and let us know how that sounds. MM |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 10:52pm
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"Occupants" sounds like tape to my ears. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |