Three Dog Night mono versions
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Topic: Three Dog Night mono versions
Posted By: aaronk
Subject: Three Dog Night mono versions
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 10:44am
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Since several Three Dog Night Dunhill hits are available in mono on CD, can it be presumed that they were taken from LP masters? Given that several indicate "45 version" are the mono 45 and mono LP versions the same in those cases?
Could we perhaps hunt down mono LPs to obtain the elusive 45 versions of "Mama Told Me Not To Come," "Eli's Coming," "One," and perhaps "Let Me Serenade You"? |
Replies:
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 12:46pm
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Aaron, commercial mono LPs were phased out in the U.S. during 1968, before the first Three Dog Night album was released. Those mono Three Dog Night hits are from the mono 45s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCzi75bhOcI - Here's why those mono LPs disappeared. :) |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 1:11pm
| Thanks, Yah Shure. My next obvious question is where did those mono 45 versions originate from on CD, if the Dunhill masters were dumped? Are you saying they are all mastered from vinyl when you say they are from the mono 45s? I've never detected anything in those recordings that sounded like vinyl dubs, but maybe I haven't listened closely enough. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 1:18pm
Yeah, I've always wondered that myself, Aaron. I'll speculate the mono mixes of those singles were spliced into a greatest hits album at some point, and that's why they survived. |
aaronk wrote:Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 1:23pm
| Great theory, Brian! |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 2:35pm
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I just gave a listen to those four tracks on TDN's two vinyl Dunhill greatest hits collections:
On 1971's Golden Bisquits: "Mama Told Me Not To Come" "Eli's Coming" "One" On 1974's Joy To The World - Their Greatest Hits "One" "Let Me Serenade You" And they're all the stereo LP versions. TDN was one of the biggest selling acts (if not the biggest act) in Dunhill's history, so it's possible that all of their masters were retained by virtue of their higher profile and catalog value. At least that's my guess. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 2:49pm
| Either way, it's just good to have the correct single mixes available on CD! Now, I just need to find great sounding mono sources for those tracks... |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 8:22pm
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ABC purchased Dot Records in 1975. When they did, they purged a lot of mono or multitrack master tapes if stereo or rechanneled tapes existed. Back then EMI in England was the long standing ABC Records licensee. EMI saved their copy master dubs from the USA. Those copy tapes are all we have of singles masters or mono content not existing in true Stereo. This is why few singles masters in mono or outtakes exist for ABC or for Dot Records unless the master tapes were in other vaults. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 27 November 2010 at 7:27pm
| My understanding is that the Three Dog Night material was licensed to Dunhill which followed to ABC and now to MCA. So if it's a continued licensing arrangement, Three Dog Night may have their own master storage, which could be why more mono has survived. |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:25am
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Dunhill owned this material, not leased it. No original tapes of the singles masters. Likely second or third generation copies in the UK or West German EMI vaults available. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: eriejwg
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 6:30pm
| Wishful thinking then. How about a UK or West German Three Dog Night mono singles collection. |
Posted By: Steve Carras
Date Posted: 24 January 2014 at 12:06am
It's been yanked. However, here's the title..Bob Dylan-Stick with Mono. That explains it all as far as I;m concerned.:) ------------- You know you're really older when you think that younger singer Jesse McCartney's related in anyway to former Beatle Paul McCartney. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 28 January 2014 at 9:52pm
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A few mono tapes survived the purge. This is why a
couple of them made onto the CD. If you are talking about "Celebrate: The Three Dog Night Story", some of those singles weren't the actual single versions. With "Eli's Coming", Bill Inglot tacked on the piano coda from somewhere. It ain't the 45s. I have the 45, and that coda is longer and louder. "Mama Told Me Not To Come" isn't the single version there, either. Wrong mix. I have the 45. There are subtle differences sonic differences on the mono single "Easy To be Hard". Like "One", it's a tossup as to if one can accept it as the single or not. Some stereo mixes are the same as the mono mixes to my ears, as "One" is. And, of course, "Sure As I'm Sitting Here", and "Play Something Sweet (Brickyard Blues)" are album versions. One has to do their own edits if they want to recreate the actual single. It has come to my attention that "Let Me Serenade You" is another dedicated single mix I have to look for. Man! I sure hope someone like Real Gone Music finds some European tapes of all the dingles and gets them all on CD. ------------- |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 29 January 2014 at 7:45am
| Well if you're searching for the dedicated single mix on "Let Me Serenade You" I suggest you find a DJ copy, because as far as I know all of the stock copies were duophonic stereo. Only the DJ 45 has the dedicated mono mix without the simulated stereo. |
Posted By: Steve Carras
Date Posted: 30 January 2014 at 10:01pm
------------- You know you're really older when you think that younger singer Jesse McCartney's related in anyway to former Beatle Paul McCartney. |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 25 March 2014 at 3:37pm
Thanks to you, I think we're finding out. ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 25 March 2014 at 6:56pm
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Well, the only mono mix that appears to have been dubbed from vinyl is "Joy To The World." The other mono mixes, like Liar, Shambala, and Family Of Man, as well as a couple B-sides, all appear to be from tape. That means some of those tapes must have been sitting in the US vaults at the time the Celebrate comp came out. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 26 March 2014 at 4:51pm
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Aaron, Why do you say "Joy To The World" was a disk dub?
The mono single version was issued on the Rhino Billboard Top R&R Hits: 1971 CD in 1988. It was its first CD appearance. We will all be stoked if someone can find all of the correct 45 versions on tape. But, even if some must come from vinyl, that's OK too, just as long as the restoration and mastering make it so you can't tell. In the meantime, i'm on a mission to track down all of the 45 versions. ------------- |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 26 March 2014 at 5:48pm
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Hey Grant, I recently posted this in another thread:
After some careful analysis, I can say that the mono 45 version of "Joy To The World" that's been floating around on CD is a vinyl dub. This explains why it fades earlier than the actual 45 and has some strange clicks throughout, in addition to some distortion in places. In order to hide vinyl noise, the keyboard intro has been carefully spliced on from the stereo version and folded down to mono. The way I can tell is because on the stereo mix, the percussion mics are left up. Even though the drums haven't started, I can hear the rattle of the snares and possibly a faint hi-hat tap before the first drums on the stereo mix. None of this can be heard on the true mono mix. But, it can be heard on the 45 version on CD, which can only mean it was borrowed from the stereo. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 26 March 2014 at 7:15pm
Isn't "One" slightly sped/pitched up on the 45 compared to the LP? ------------- Doug --------------- All of the good signatures have been taken. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 26 March 2014 at 9:24pm
Wow! OK, While I haven't had the actual 45 since 1972, I somehow now remember that the 45 fade ended with the line "Joy To You And Me!". Is that correct? ------------- |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 26 March 2014 at 9:27pm
listening for mix differences, and, aside from non vs. stereo, I found none. ------------- |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 26 March 2014 at 10:47pm
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Regarding "Joy To The World," it ends like this:
Joy to you and me [ad lib] I want to sing it to ya Joy [end of fade] Also, your dub of "MacArthur Park" sounds really nice! Not sure what stylus/cartridge you use, but I can tell it's really good. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 9:03am
I use the Audio Technica 150mlx cart with the Microline stylus. http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC0150MLX.html Since I can't adjust the resistance on my preamp, I simply use a setting in Adobe Audition to flatten the frequency response before any cleanup. ------------- |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 10:37am
It's no wonder I like the sound. That's the same one I use :) ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 12:13pm
My version is still obviously from a record because there is distortion in spots that wasn't able to get rid of. After all, it is an ABC-Dunhill pressing of almost seven and a half minutes, and from 1968. There is even a dropout on the intro, but that is apparently on the tape. ------------- |
Posted By: Steve Carras
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 3:12pm
Yes, and to me, it's different mixed with the guitar louder under the "Num-ber" part on the chorus.Interesting comment about "Eli's Coming"'s recreation. ------------- You know you're really older when you think that younger singer Jesse McCartney's related in anyway to former Beatle Paul McCartney. |