John Lennon - Stand By Me
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Topic: John Lennon - Stand By Me
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Subject: John Lennon - Stand By Me
Date Posted: 23 April 2011 at 5:33am
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I've been asking a lot of questions on this forum, so I'm happy to post my first addition to the database.
The 45 and LP versions of "Stand By Me" are actually different mixes. The easiest way to spot the difference is that the single has added strings (synth?) on the intro. These are prominent from 0:05-0:18. For the longest time the best place to source the 45 mix was Lennon Legend, even though it faded a few seconds earlier than the original 45. Not sure which versions are on the new comps, other than I've confirmed the LP version is on the Gimme Some Truth box. |
Replies:
Posted By: Todd Ireland
Date Posted: 23 April 2011 at 12:00pm
| Nice catch, Ringmaster_D! |
Posted By: Rockdent
Date Posted: 23 April 2011 at 3:46pm
| I have up till now only read posts without responding so I apologize for being a confused "newbie", but I really don't hear the issue that is being referred to here (I do not have Lennon Legend on CD however). I pulled out my vinyl 45 and LP copies of Stand By Me and played them back to back and they sound identical as to the stringlike organ sounds early on. I then pulled out the 3 versions of CDs I have with Stand By Me on them and again the original CD version of the Rock 'N Roll LP sounds identical as well. The Imagine soundtrack also mimics that same mix. The 2004 remix of Rock 'N Roll definitely moves and mutes that keyboard/strings sort of sound, but it is still there as well. What am I missing? |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 24 April 2011 at 7:48am
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Welcome Rockdent!
My memory seems to coincide with yours; I don't remember a version without that keyboard either (I believe it was an ARP String Ensemble). Andy |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:07am
| I just listened to the version on the new Rock 'n Roll remaster as compared with the 45 version on Lennon Legend and the overdub is clear. It's not the organ that differs -- that is on all versions. The 45 has a string synth overdub that comes in clearly at the 0:05 mark. This is not present on the original LP version. I also checked "Eight Arms To Hold You" by Chip Madinger & Mark Easter and this book also documents the difference. |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 30 April 2011 at 8:50am
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So is the Lennon Legend CD the only disc with the 45 version (with the overdub)? ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 30 April 2011 at 6:20pm
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Lennon Legend is the only digital source that I know of for the single mix, although I don't own all the Lennon compilations so I can't be sure. By the way, the single mix appeared on the original 45 (Apple 1881) and the 1977 Capitol Starline re-issue.
I can confirm the following compilations have the LP mix: the Lennon box, Power To The People: The Hits, and the Gimme Some Truth box. |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 01 May 2011 at 9:32pm
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Pat, have you been able to listen to the CDs in the database, and, have you
discovered this difference? The versions I have heard of this track all sound identical to me. What am I missing? I am not even sure if I have the 45 or LP mix on Imagine soundtrack and John Lennon Collection (then again, THAT CD was remastered and songs changed on it from the first edition of it). ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 01 May 2011 at 11:27pm
| I used to have the Lennon "Collection" CD (I got rid of it after upgrading the superior sounding "Legend" CD) and I never noticed a different mix for "Stand By Me" on "Collection. Does anyone know which mix has been on that? |
Posted By: Pat Downey
Date Posted: 02 May 2011 at 9:52am
| Here is my take on this "Stand By Me" situation. My ears do not hear a difference between the original vinyl 45 and vinyl LP "Rock 'n' Roll". Regarding cd's I do not hear any differnce between the "Lennon Legend" cd and the original "Rock 'n' Roll" cd. The reissued cd of "Rock 'n' Roll" (Capitol 74329) to my ears features a remixed version of Stand By Me that is neither the 45 nor LP mix. My ears are admittedly not the best anymore but a number of contributors seem to agree with me. |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 02 May 2011 at 8:13pm
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I wish I could find my original LP but I no longer have it. I do have the original 45 and several re-issues. So I can't speak to the absolute original vinyl album, but there are two mixes out there. As Ringmaster D states, there are no extra synth strings on the beginning of the song on the 2010 remaster of Rock and Roll, on Gimme Some Truth, The Lennon Box, and Power to the People (The Hits). I DO hear the extra synth string on the original 45, the starline 45, on Legend, on The John Lennon Collection, and on the Timeless Music Collection done through CEMA special products and sold at Sams Club, that collection is titled "John Lennon Instant Karma All Time Greatest Hits".
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Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 03 May 2011 at 3:40am
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I'll be danged.... i never ever noticed that.
But i just checked my copies as well... the versions on "The John Lennon Collection" and also "Legend" have this string-synth overdub. It appears the album version does not. -MM |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 03 May 2011 at 2:56pm
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To Mark Matthews:
I'm not sure that I follow your post. Do you mean to say you have an original vinyl "Rock And Roll" album that has no String Ensemble? Andy |
Posted By: KentT
Date Posted: 03 May 2011 at 3:38pm
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And also the Adam VIII LP which was illegally released was a different rough mix from a 7 1/2 IPS tape. ------------- I turn up the good and turn down the bad! |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 12:17am
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I would like someone to post a link so that I can listen to the two versions
(just the beginning), as I still can not hear any difference. Maybe at my age, my ears can not hear this frequency? ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 8:21am
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If I'm interpreting all of the posts above correctly (and correct me if I'm wrong), the conclusion is:
45 version = LP version = version on the original "Rock 'n Roll" CD, but that there is a remastered version of the "Rock 'n Roll" CD which contains an alternate mix (missing a string synth overdub in the intro) that has never shown up commercially until the the CD era. Correct? |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 1:48pm
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Hi Gordon,
Actually, i think that's partially correct. There IS a remaster / remix of the album. It has no string overdub, but i don't think the original mix of the album did either. (Anyone with a vinyl copy to check?) Here's what I am gathering from all the above data: the original 45 mix has a string overdub starting at :05. (which does continue as the song goes on, it's just very low. It's loudest in the intro). Andrew: to answer your Q, no, i no longer have the original vinyl album to compare. I DO have the CD of the album (original mix) and the re-master/remixed version of the album. The remix of the album sounds quite good, but also does NOT contain the string overdub. So, to re-cap...neither of my copies of "Rock And Roll" CD contain the strings. Per above posts, the Apple 45 and Starline re-issue 45 DO contain the strings. And 2 CD's DO contain this 45 mix with strings: "The John Lennon Collection" and "Lennon: Legend". I listened to both, and i hear the strings. I think i am up to speed on this...please correct me if i missed something... :-) MM |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 4:23pm
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I finally listened to this track on four different CDs and never realized the added strings until this thread. I hear the overdub on the same two discs Mark and Bill mention above (Collection and Legend). I do not hear the strings on the 2004 release of Rock 'N' Roll (which is the expanded version with four bonus tracks). The strings are also missing on the Music From The Original Motion Picture "Imagine." I'm amazed that after all this time the board members here still find these subtle differences on LP vs. 45 mixes. Like Todd said earlier: nice catch Ringmaster_D! ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 6:14pm
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I didn't realize I even owned the vinyl LP of "Rock 'N' Roll", but I have A Capitol Re-Issue SN-16069.
It has NO STRING ENSEMBLE!! Andy |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 6:27pm
| Thanks guys. Just glad to contribute around here after all the insight everyone else has given me! |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 6:56pm
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<There IS a remaster / remix of the album. It has no string overdub>
Mark - My remaining question that I don't think has been addressed here - was the Remix of the Rock & Roll album also relesased in 1975? Or is it something that came out many years later? If later, then to me this version is just an alt mix. Otherwise, it would be like saying the mixes on the Beatles' "Let It Be Naked" should be listed in the database as album versions or something. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 7:58pm
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I don't have the stock 45, but do have the DJ 45 and the original Rock 'N' Roll Apple LP, both of which I received from Capitol in 1975.
After dubbing the intros of the mono DJ 45 side, the stereo DJ 45 side and the LP track and listening to an A/B/C comparison of all three a good dozen times under headphones, my conclusion is that there are no differences between them at all. There is nothing that comes in prominently from :05 to :18 that isn't already there during the first five seconds of the song. The mono DJ 45 sounds like it's a straight fold down. |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 9:17pm
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Hi again,
Edison to answer your Q; the album was remixed for the 2004 re-issue / re-master and added bonus tracks. But don't confuse this 2004 remix with Ringmaster's original alert for the thread. The alert is that (apparently) the original 1975 album mix is different from the 1975 45 mix. and it now also may be per above post that perhaps only stock 45's contain the string overdub. To clarify, Yah Shure, you are saying you hear no difference between your Lp or either side of the DJ 45, but i'm not sure if that means they all have the strings, or none of them do.... MM -MM |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 05 May 2011 at 8:08am
| Well, based on everyone else's comments that the string synth overdubs were present on 45s, dj 45s and LPs, I'm assuming Yah Shure's copies have them, too. I think what's also been decided was that the first post in this thread is inaccurate - that the original 1975 album mix IS the same as the 45 mix. So, unless someone has an original 1975 LP with a different mix on "Stand By Me", there really was just one mix for the song - on LP, 45, dj 45, etc. - and that in 2004 an alt mix was made for the remix CD, much like the 2000's also had a "Let It Be ... Naked" CD, a totally remixed album - which would just mean that Pat would indicate the 2004 CD has an "alternate mix, not the 45 or LP mix". (But again, correct me if I'm wrong.) |
Posted By: AndrewChouffi
Date Posted: 05 May 2011 at 8:23am
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To EdisonLite:
Keep in mind as a mentioned a few posts earlier that I have *A Capitol Re-Issue* vinyl LP that DOESN'T have the String Ensemble & that vinyl was issued (probably) in the early 80s. Andy |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 05 May 2011 at 11:20am
Mark, I was only saying that the DJ 45 and the original Apple LP had identical intros. i.e. the DJ 45 and the 1975 Rock 'N' Roll vinyl LP track are not different. (EDIT: Correction: they actually ARE different, as Mark details further downthread.) Having only ever heard one version of this track over the years, I dug out the only CD I have "Stand By Me" on (a circa-1990 Capitol issue of The John Lennon Collection) and found it to match both my DJ 45 and 1975 vinyl LP. I downloaded the Power To The People The Hits set, which Bill stated does NOT include the string/synth overdub, but found it to be no different from any of the others I'd compared above. I'm reading about string ensembles or a string synth that "comes in clearly at the 0:05 mark," but I don't hear either. All I hear on all five of the versions I have is the same, somewhat-muted synth that begins at :00, changes chords at :04 and remains somewhat muted until the added synth flourishes at :14, just before John's vocal starts. Ringmaster's initial assertion was that there was a 45/LP difference. Pat has already weighed in and said that he hears no difference between his 45 (commercial, I presume, Pat?) and original vinyl LP. I likewise hear no difference between my DJ 45 and original LP. Based on our findings, it would appear that the DJ and commercial 45s are therefore the same, and that there is therefore no 45/LP distinction in the original 1975 vinyl releases. Ringmaster, was your initial 45/LP statement based on your own actual vinyl 45 and original Apple vinyl LP comparisons? |
MMathews wrote:Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 05 May 2011 at 12:51pm
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Hmmm.
quite a turmoil over this one :-) some of us are hearing these differences quite clearly, others do not hear it at all. In some of the posts, i am seeing that the organ and the strings are being confused. The LP version and most Cd's have a clear organ in the intro, as well as the 2004 remix and of the LP. But the CD's "Collection" and "Legend" have a overdub of very hi-pitched violins dubbed in as well, at a low volume. I'm currently trying to scare up a vinyl 45 dub and LP dub so i can hear those as well. All i know is, my CD findings agree exactly with Ringmaster's, and Bill Cahill's. If i can prepare an easy file for comparison's, i'll send that around. . Stand by... MM |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 05 May 2011 at 1:03pm
| My initial observation was based only on CD sources of this material, as I do not own the original vinyl. I cross-referenced my findings with the "Eight Arms To Hold You" book by Chip Madinger which is perhaps the most respected source of all solo Beatles variations. Sure enough, the book confirmed that the additional synth string overdub was added specifially for the original (and re-issued) 45 releases. All Chip's research, by the way, is based on first-hand observation of original sources. I'll be anxiously awaiting MM's confirmation of this. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 05 May 2011 at 1:32pm
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Ringmaster: thanks for the further clarification. Once the lab results are in... :)
Mark: thanks for giving me an idea of what I should be listening for, as your "very high-pitched violins" clue was quite helpful. And that just might be the key. As I mentioned in my very first post on this board (the nearest equivalent of the Hoffman Forum's equipment profile, perhaps) I do wear hearing aids. But I don't wear them while listening to or working on music, due to feedback issues with headphones. So I really cranked the headphone level up to listen to a comparison one more time, knowing fully well that it would cause ringing in my ears for the next day or two. But even then, I couldn't pick up any differences. Are we talking a couple kiloHertz higher than even Mantovani's cascading strings, here? And why are the rest of you all baying at the moon? :) |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:35am
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On the above mentioned tracks that have the synth strings, listening with headphones, five seconds or so in the introduction, synth strings start dead center in the stereo stage.
The organ that starts with the song is more to the side. |
Posted By: davidclark
Date Posted: 08 May 2011 at 6:03am
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well, after having it pointed out to me exactly what to listen for, and MM
sending me a sample of the beginning of the 45, original LP, (and remix), I can now state that I hear the difference between the 45 and LP, although it is probably the most subtle difference I have ever come across. ------------- dc1 |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 09 May 2011 at 3:18pm
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Hi all again....
Yes, and many thanks to John Pratt, he was kind enough to send me a test file with the intro from his copy of the promo 45, both stereo/mono sides, the original vinyl LP, and the CD "Power To The People" (albeit the last sample was a download, but i'm sure accurate.) Yes, folks this is indeed a hearing test- as it happens my upper mid-range and hi freq hearing is very sensitive, so to me this was easy to hear, but honestly this string overdub is exactly what David says, very subtle...and it's low in the mix, likely down about -10 db compared to the guitar. Near as i could figure in my wave editor, the strings (or synth-string) occur in the 8-10k freq. range. So: -Both sides of DJ 45 HAVE the strings. -The vinyl album does NOT have the strings. -Neither mix/issue of the CD of the album has the strings. Conclusion: 45 version different mix from LP version. Cd's known (so far) to contain the 45 version: John Lennon Collection Legend There ya have it - and thanks John, for sending the vinyl dubs and wow, very clean records and crystal clean dubs from them. -Mark M |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 11 May 2011 at 9:03am
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Mark, thank you very much for your detailed analysis! Hearing test, indeed. <sigh> Also, thanks to Bill for the added listening tips.
I'm still scratching my head a bit over this one, though: Mark indicated to me that the string overdub falls within the 8 to 10 kilohertz range. Top-40 radio was still largely an AM medium in 1975, so why bother adding an 8-10kHz string to the 45, when it would have been well above the highest frequency response of most typical AM receivers then in use? |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 11 May 2011 at 7:52pm
| The synth may be on the multi track and just not mixed in for all versions. I notice on the Gimme Some Truth CD (which claims to be original LP mixes) the synth strings appear to fade up and can be heard slightly for a split second at :51 as John finishes the phrase "stand by me". Then the distorted refrain wipes out any evidence of it being on the song, but it may be there after that point to be felt, not heard. (So this version on "Truth", while missing the synth on the intro, appears to have some synth starting at :51.) On the 45 where the synth starts on the song intro, the synth can be heard all the way to that :51 point and then gets wiped out by the refrain, but it might be buried into the distortion on that mix too. On the actual remix that was done for some CDs (which has less distortion), the synth string does not pop on for that split second. And yes, these are DOG EAR notes. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 11 May 2011 at 11:48pm
In 1975, I was listening to pop radio on the FM dial only. (Actually, I was since 1972 - when I started listening to the radio.) By 1975 or 1976, I actually had a good stereo hi-fi (separate components) and not just FM on a radio. All my friends at this point were listening to FM stations, and in fact I didn't know a single person who listened to AM radio in my middle school. So to answer the above question, my guess is the label was aiming toward FM listeners and, considering John Lennon was such a major, important artist, that probably factored in as well. I would equate this to when stereo LPs were first being manufactured. Very few people had stereo systems then but labels were looking ahead to the future. Still, it's such a minor mix difference in "Stand By Me", I can totally understand all the head scratching on this one :) |