Cashbox vs BB Top 40 hits
Printed From: Top 40 Music on CD
Category: Top 40 Music On Compact Disc
Forum Name: Chat Board
Forum Description: Chat away but please observe the chat board rules
URL: https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6985
Printed Date: 27 April 2025 at 7:27am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Cashbox vs BB Top 40 hits
Posted By: rnell
Subject: Cashbox vs BB Top 40 hits
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 1:01pm
| I'm not sure if somebody has started this thread before, but I've been working on a list of Cashbox top 40 hits which were not top 40 hits in Billboard magazine. Although I have only researched 1972, 73 and 74, I was surprised to find out as many as 36 songs were Top 40 hits in Cashbox but not in BB in 1972, 35 in 1973 and 24 in 1974. In addition, many of these songs are not included in the database (e.g. Stories "Mammy blue" #21, Soul Children "Hearsay" #22, Led Zeppelin "Over hills.." #28 to name only very few). |
Replies:
Posted By: musicmanatl
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 2:18pm
| Wow, I had no idea that there were so many. Will you be posting the list here? |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 3:01pm
| Yes of course, I worked with the weekly charts published in the Cashbox website. If you are interested I can also post highest Cashbox and Billboard positions for comparison purposes. It is interesting to see the gap between the highest position between both charts (e.g. John Denver's "I'd rather be a cowboy" reached #27 in CB and #62 in BB). Could anybody explain these differences? |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 31 July 2012 at 8:28am
| When you get to "The Letter" by Wayne Newton as the number one song December 12th 1992 you begin to sense a pattern. The earlier Cashbox charts (60's and 70's) seemed reasonable, but into the 80's and 90's the phrase to best describe Cashbox was "the best charts money can buy". For more on Cashbox charts, just Google "Cashbox Magazine Murder" |
Posted By: bitman
Date Posted: 31 July 2012 at 3:10pm
| As I recall, Billboard charts were based on a combination of airplay and sales, whereas Cashbox was sales only. |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 31 July 2012 at 3:49pm
|
Here's the 1973 list, number in the left is Cashbox peak position, number in the right is BB peak position which I have added for comparison purposes. To make this faster, I have shortened some song titles.
20 Sutherland bros and Quiver You got me anyway 48 21 Stories Mammy blue 50 25 Jerry Lee Lewis Drinkin' wine... 41 27 John Denver I'd rather be a cowboy 62 28 Led Zeppelin Over the hills and far.51 29 Manhattans There's no me without..43 30 Steely Dan Show biz kids 61 31 Donna Fargo Superman 41 31 Lighthouse Pretty lady 53 32 Grass Roots Love is what you make..55 32 Jackie Moore Sweet Charlie babe 42 33 Stealers Wheel Everyone's agreed that.49 33 America Muskrat love 67 34 Rolling Stones You can't always get.. 42 34 Tom Jones Letter to Lucille 60 35 Rod Stewart Twisting the night away 59 35 Bloodstone Never let you go 43 36 David Gates Clouds 47 36 Independents Baby I've been missing.41 36 Dobie Gray Loving &n bsp; arms 61 36 Alice Cooper Billion dollar babies 57 37 Les Emmerson Control of me 51 37 Michael Jackson With a child's heart 50 37 Anne Murray What about me 64 37 Raspberries Tonight 69 38 First Choice Smarty Pants 56 39 Cymande The message 48 39 Austin Roberts Keep on singing 50 39 Hues Corporation Freedom for the.. 63 40 Nilsson Remember (Christmas) 53 40 Tommy James Boo boo don't cha be.. 70 40 Keith Hampshire The first cut is the.. 51 40 Eagles &nbs p; Tequila sunrise 64 40 Nino Tempo Sister James & nbsp; 53 In subsequent years list gets substantially shorter. If you like this I can post all 70s and 80s lists. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 31 July 2012 at 6:14pm
Up to a certain point Cash Box was sales-only, and we're not quite sure where. They stopped notating that the chart was compiled from only sales in early 1968, but the year-end charts continued to call it the "Cash Box Top 100 Bestselling Singles Chart" up through the 1973 or 1974 year-end issue. Cash Box began notating which songs were the greatest airplay gainers sometime in the late '70s. So it's kind of a mystery as to exactly when they started incorporating airplay. |
bitman wrote:Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 12:43am
I'd like to see them, rnell. Actually, the lists getting shorter in subsequent years would seem to back up the scant evidence we have that 1973 was perhaps the last full year that the "Cash Box" Top 100 was a completely sales-based chart. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 8:01am
| I, too, would like to see all 70s and 80s lists. Thanks. |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 10:39am
|
Here's the 1972 list, hope it looks better (compared with my previous list - 1973 -!!).
Thanks to Santi Paradoa for helping me reconvert the files. 22 Soul Children Hearsay 44 25 Tommy James & Shondells Nothing To Hide 41 25 Sly & the Family Stone Smilin’ ; 42 26 Guess Who Heartbroken Bopper 47 26 Stories I’m Coming Home 42 27 John Denver Friends With You 47 28 Raiders Country Wine 51 29 Elton John Tiny Dancer 41 31 Partridge Family Am I Losing You 59 32 James Brown I Got A Bag On My Own 44 32 Bobby Womack Woman’s Gotta Have It 60 32 Yes And You And I ; 42 33 Emotions Show Me How 52 33 Denise LaSalle Now Run And Tell That 46 34 Clean Living In Heaven There Is No Beer 49 34 Giorgio ; Son Of My Father 46 34 Millie Jackson My Man A Sweet Man 42 35 Jefferson Airplane Pretty As You Feel 60 35 King Floyd Woman Don’t Go Astray 53 35 Joe Tex You Said A Bad Word 41 36 Alice Cooper Be My Lover 49 36 Chris Hodges We’re On Our Way 44 36 Isley Brothers Lay Away 54 36 John Lennon Happy Xmas 36 Candi Staton In The Ghetto 48 38 James Brown Honky Tonk 44 38 James Brown There It Is 43 38 Gladstone A Piece Of Paper 45 38 Wayne Newton Can’t You Hear The Song 48 38 Rod Stewart Handbags And Gladrags 42 38 Sugar Bears You Are The One 51 39 Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds Daisy Mae 41 39 Nite Liters Afro Strut 49 40 Crusaders Put It Where You Want It 52 40 Denise La Salle Man Sized Job 55 40 Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes I Miss You, 58 |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 10:53am
|
This is 1974
23 Barry White Honey Please Can’t Ya See 44 24 ZZ Top La ; Grange 41 25 Alice Cooper Teenage Lament 74 48 26 Brownsville Station I'm The Leader Of The Gang 48 30 Bob Dylan On A Night Like This 44 30 Billy Preston You’re So Unique 48 31 Bette Midler In The Mood 51 31 Stylistics Heavy Fallin’ Out 41 33 Allman Brothers Band ; Jessica 65 33 Cher I Saw A Man He Danced With His..42 33 Kris & Rita A Song I’d Like To Sing 49 34 Earth, Wind & Fire Keep Your Head To The.. 52 34 Gilbert O'Sullivan Happiness Is Me And You 62 36 Four Tops One Chain Don't Make No..41 36 BW Stevenson The River Of Love 53 37 Lobo Rings 43 38 Bill Amesbury Virginia 59 38 Joe Cocker Put Out The Light 46 38 Marvin Gaye & Diana Ross Don’t Knock My Love 46 38 Eddie Kendricks Tell Here Love Has Felt 50 38 Steve Miller Band Living In The USA 49 39 Edgar Winter Group Hangin’ Around 65 40 Marvin Gaye You Sure Love To Ball 50 40 Steve Miller Band Your Cash Ain’t Nothin’.51 |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 11:00am
|
This is 1975
31 Sharon Paige & H. Melvin & Blue Notes Hope That We Can Be…. 42 32 Ohio Players I Want To Be Free 44 33 Gladys Knight & The Pips Love Finds It’s Own Way 47 33 O'Jays Give The People What They Want 45 35 Gary Toms Empire 7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (Blow Your whistle) 46 36 Diamond Reo Ain't That Peculiar 44 37 Rolling Stones I Don’t Know Why 42 38 Michael Holm When A Child Is Born 53 38 David Bowie Changes ; 41 38 James Taylor Mexico 49 40 Harry Chapin I Wanna Learn A Love Song 44 40 Al Green Oh Me, Oh My 48 40 Gladys Knight & The Pips Money 50 40 Alice Cooper Welcome To My Nightmare 45 |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 11:04am
|
1976:
32 Frankie Avalon Venus 46 38 Bachman Turner Overdrive Down To The line 43 40 Starbuck I Got To Know 43 |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 11:24am
|
1977:
32 Heart ; Dreamboat Annie 42 35 Millie Jackson If you're not in love..43 36 Walter Murphy Flight '76 44 37 Aerosmith Draw the line 42 39 Al Stewart On the border 42 39 Doobie brothers Little darling 48 |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 11:29am
|
1978:
34 Johnny Rivers Curious mind 41 34 Justin Hayward Forever autumn 47 35 Dan Hill All I see is your face 41 36 D. Ross/M. Jackson Ease on down the road 41 38 John Denver How can I leave you again 44 39 Nick Gilder Here comes the night 44 |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:09pm
| Does anyone know why the amount of songs that only made top 40 in Cashbox (and not Billboard) gets smaller the further we get into the '70s? |
Posted By: rnell
Date Posted: 08 August 2012 at 11:03am
|
I continue with the lists of CB top 40 singles (outside the top 40 in BB):
1979 33 Gary's Gang Keep on dancin' 41 33 Mass Production Firecracker 43 34 Stevens, Ray I need your help BM 49 40 Firefall Goodbye I love you 43 40 Cars It's all I can do 41 1980 34 Flying Lizards Money 50 35 Mac Davis It's hard to be humble 43 37 Robert John Lonely eyes 41 38 Queen Play the game 42 39 Ali Thomson Live every minute 42 |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 6:16pm
| Great thread. I just received the two new Whitburn Music Vendor / Record World books for Christmas with a focus on checking out the songs that made those charts but never hit the Billboard Top 100. It got me to thinking, is there an easy way to get to the same information with Cashbox, or do you have to go day by day using the charts on their website? |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 3:19am
Or you could wait until our Cash Box book comes out, late next year. We'll have the non-Billboard hits marked with a special symbol (just like the RW book). |
Posted By: Santi Paradoa
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 4:52am
|
Paul:
So that upcoming Cashbox book will include the songs that also charted on the BB chart? ------------- Santi Paradoa Miami, Florida |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 5:33am
Yes, it will include EVERYTHING that charted on the Cash Box Top 100 charts. We're doing all of the week-by-week research from scratch, as the previously published books had lots of mistakes. We have some great internal programs for proofing, so we'll be sure to get all the chart numbers correct. |
Posted By: Ringmaster_D
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:29am
| Thanks Paul, that's great news. Did Cashbox have a bubbling under chart like Record World? If so, is that in the plans too? |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 8:11am
Yes, they did have a "bubbling under" chart. We'd love to include that info, just not sure if we'll have enough time to research everything. Stay tuned... |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 6:47pm
|
I recently spent some time going through the peak positions of songs in Cashbox, Record World, R&R and Billboard, comparing #s, etc. And a few Cashbox #s seem off. People have commented that not every peak # in the book is accurate, so I just thought I'd ask - are these the Cashbox peak positions for the following songs:
Saving All My Love For You/Whitney #10 I'll Get By/Eddie Money #6 Nothin' To Hide/Poco - didn't even make the top 100 (it peaked in the 30's in Billboard) Everything/Jody Watley #36 (it peaked at #4 and #5 in Billboard & RW) |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 8:24pm
Saving All My Love was #5 for three weeks: http://cashboxmagazine.com/archives/80s_files/198 51012.html (The word wrapping is not working properly on the html coding, at least not in Safari, so I had to omit the direct links. You'll have to cut and paste the links.) I'll Get By was indeed #6: http://cashboxmagazine.com/archives/90s_files/199 20307.html True that "Nothing to Hide" did not chart (unless there's a mistake in Randy Price's chart transcription. Not true about "Everything" -- it was #5 for two weeks: http://cashboxmagazine.com/archives/90s_files/199 00127.html |
Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 6:00am
|
"Everything" by Jody Watley had a real interesting chart run in Cash Box. (I found this when doing a week-by-week comparison between the three major charts in 1989.
On December 2nd, the track went to #36 (the peak point listed in the book), then fell over the next few weeks. (#45, #49, #59, #69). After the magazine's annual two week frozen period, the song leaped back up to #10 on the January 20th chart. Reason? You've got me. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 12:00pm
|
Thanks for all the info and trivia. Interesting run with "Everything". Did it have an up-down-up-down movement in the other pop charts?
As for "Nothin' To Hide", that's the only top 40 Billboard hit I noticed that isn't in the top 100 at all in Cashbox (at least in terms of the years/weeks Cashbox had a top 100). There may be others I suppose. I'd occasionally notice, for instance, a #67 Billboard pop hit not in Cashbox at all, and even those occasions weren't all that frequent. (I'd often see a lower charter in both charts, but low). But a #39 Billboard hit (the Poco one) not charting at all elsewhere is interesting. Still, I remember hearing that one on pop radio. |
Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:46pm
|
Cashbox's reputation in the late '80s and '90s was less than favorable. It was known for bought chart positions.
My personal opinion was that Watley's people didn't "pay up", and the song plunged until it got too popular to ignore. And no, it didn't drop and come back up in either Billboard or R&R. On both, it had a normal chart run. |
Posted By: mstgator
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 5:05pm
My favorite anomaly is a song by Wayne Newton (!) which interrupted the #1 run of Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You" on the Cashbox pop chart in 1992, despite never appearing on any other trade's charts (pop or AC). |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 11:23pm
| You gotta wonder how much someone at Cashbox received for putting a non top 100 hit all the way up at #1! |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 11:47pm
| And let's not forget their country charts director was assassinated for refusing to fix a song's chart position. |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:33am
|
On some of the higher charting discrepencies you should include a column as to how many full page ads were placed in Cashbox promoting the song.. especially in the 80's.
Just sayin'.. |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:24pm
| I never heard that about Cashbox's country charts director. Is that true? |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 2:48pm
From a CMT article:
------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 10:51pm
Well, I guess we have some idea now:
|
Posted By: torcan
Date Posted: 07 March 2013 at 3:43pm
I don't think the problem was just confined to Cashbox. I've heard allegations that Billboard's long-time chart director Bill Wardlow took bribes of up to $5000 if you wanted a bullet, and that the president of Casablanca records could dictate where some of his company's albums appeared on the chart. If you look at the Hot 100 and top LP charts from the later '70s into the earlier '80s, there are some awfully weird things that went on. Part of it was due to the stupid chart rules where a record had to "lose its star" before it could fall. This lead to many log-jams on all the charts and you really wonder of the accuracy. I can't wait for that Cashbox book! |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 07 March 2013 at 8:56pm
Yep. From an Orlando Sentinal article about Larry Harris's book about his tenure at Casablanca Records: "Harris himself was engaging in the bald-faced bribery of Bill Wardlow, the guardian of the all-important Billboard charts, to inflate Casablanca’s rankings – a task made considerably easier by Wardlow’s utter corruption and yearning to be near the spotlight of the disco acts like Donna Summer and the Village People who, along with KISS, formed the foundation of the label’s undeniable, if self-inflated, success." http://www2.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13512 - http://www2.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13512 |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 08 March 2013 at 6:03am
| As our research of the Cash Box charts continues, we are finding more and more mistakes in the previously published books. This research is a huge undertaking, but we still hope to have a finished book out sometime later this year. Stay tuned... |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 12 August 2013 at 1:21pm
| I just finished up the week-by-week research on "Everything" by Jody Watley. That WAS a weird chart run! |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 12 August 2013 at 3:50pm
Hopefully you guys have Randy Price helping out with that book.... ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 13 August 2013 at 9:43am
I'm sure they're starting from scratch from the original issues, so I doubt they'd need any help. |
Posted By: Paul Haney
Date Posted: 13 August 2013 at 10:23am
|
Yes, we're giving this project the full "Record Research" treatment of doing the week-by-week research from scratch. It's been VERY time consuming, but it's the only way to do it right.
So far, we've found hundreds of mistakes in the previously published books...including this one I just found this morning: "If U Were Mine" by U-Krew actually peaked at #24 with 17 weeks charted, not #56 with 8 weeks charted as previously published. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 13 August 2013 at 2:32pm
|
Paul, I don't think I've ever looked more forward to an upcoming RR release
than I have this one! Thanks for giving this effort the "full RR treatment", as you put it, even though it's *tons* more work for you. I just thought of one thing, however. I've long ago made special notations in my Pop Annual books, for all of the BB Top 40 hits that are *not* in Pat's db, and for the non-BB Top 40-peaking hits that *are* in the db. I'm expecting that this new RR book will result in both some additions and deletions to Pat's db, since Pat has always utilized Cashbox as his "go to" publication, and with as many corrections as you have been identifying along the way... |