three dog night joy to the world
Printed From: Top 40 Music on CD
Category: Top 40 Music On Compact Disc
Forum Name: Chat Board
Forum Description: Chat away but please observe the chat board rules
URL: https://top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7499
Printed Date: 02 May 2025 at 9:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: three dog night joy to the world
Posted By: edtop40
Subject: three dog night joy to the world
Date Posted: 23 June 2013 at 5:33am
|
my commercial 45 for the three dog night song 'joy to the
world' issued as dunhill/abc 4272 lists a run time on the label as 3:17 but actually runs 3:20....jim, can you check your 45 run time info for verification?.....the cd 'the complete hit singles' dumps the song early (3:14).....in addition, this cd collection is pitched faster than the vinyl 45.....the last lyrics heard on this cd are 'joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea'....while the vinyl 45 goes longer as 'joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea, joy to you and me, i want to sing it' .....this 45 run time info s/b added to the db.....i don't hear the words "i want to sing it' during any of the chorus in the song, so it can't even be re-created by are resident editing experts....and this, being the number one song from 1971!!.....btw....who puts these cd collections together where they can't double check the proper versions that they compile together....very frustrating....maybe that can be my next job after i retire from wall street!... .....a professional music double checker.. ------------- edtop40 |
Replies:
Posted By: Fetta
Date Posted: 23 June 2013 at 12:09pm
|
Ed..... you're hired! :-)
|
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 23 June 2013 at 3:33pm
|
Since the cd would have almost certainly used a disc dub for the single version, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the song would dump out a few seconds early.... ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 23 June 2013 at 4:26pm
| Ed, my stock 45's runtime is exactly like yours is: listed (3:17); actual (3:20). |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 23 June 2013 at 9:25pm
This brings up a really good point, which is one that I mentioned in another thread a long time ago. There are some mono Three Dog Night singles that have made it onto CD. I've never suspected them to be dubbed from vinyl, but maybe they were. Just now, I listened to "Joy To The World" from the Celebrate compilation. I don't hear any vinyl rumble, but there are some mysterious clicks here and there. There are also some places that could possibly be groove distortion, but I can't say for sure. If this CD does contain a vinyl dub, the mastering engineer did a really great job. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
TomDiehl1 wrote:Posted By: edtop40
Date Posted: 24 June 2013 at 8:49am
|
if they DID use a vinyl copy on their cd re-issuance, why would the pitch be off? ------------- edtop40 |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 24 June 2013 at 9:27am
|
Ed, it could be for any number of reasons. Perhaps the turntable ran too fast, or perhaps they dubbed it into an audio editor (these things did exist as early as the late '80s) and then back to a new master tape.
Of course, it may not be a vinyl dub at all, and perhaps the clicks and pops are part of the master tape it was taken from. One thing that is still puzzling, though, is why the Three Dog Night mono tapes would have survived when all the others were dumped. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 24 June 2013 at 12:58pm
|
I think that Three Dog Night continues to be a long running lease, so they may own their own masters.
Also I know that there are a ton of boots that were made on "Joy To The World", using the black ABC Dunhill label. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 25 June 2013 at 8:08pm
mono single is one of the very few songs that exist on tape.
Well, that would require taking a look at the running time of the CD in question. It could be that in order to cram all the songs they wanted on the CD, they slightly sped up the tape and faded the song early. It sounds very much like what they did to the last Elton John comp. ------------- |
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 26 June 2013 at 5:56am
| My understanding of the ABC/Dunhill tape purge is that just about everything was tossed except for the reels containing the stereo LP masters; which means that what was also spared was anything else that happened to be on those reels. The likely reason that tapes of some Three Dog Night 45 versions have survived is that they happened to be on the saved reels. In the case of artists as The Mamas And The Papas, tapes of the 45 versions did not survive the purge because they were most likely on the mono LP reels. (I don't believe any of the Three Dog Night albums were issued in mono.) |
Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 26 June 2013 at 9:26am
| And didn't all the ABC/Dunhill tapes get destroyed in the Universal fire of 2008? So if it wasn't transferred to CD by that point, any recording would be gone now. Leaving vinyl transfers as the only option. |
Posted By: The Hits Man
Date Posted: 26 June 2013 at 1:52pm
|
Anyone ever wonder if the people who threw those
ABC/Dunhill tapes out are still around, and what they think of their boneheaded decision today? I have long ago stated that collectors need turntables to help preserve our recorded legacy that the labels didn't. ------------- |
Posted By: bitman
Date Posted: 27 June 2013 at 9:54am
| But...what about the rumors of mono copies existing in Europe somewhere? Seems those stories pop up from time to time. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 27 June 2013 at 10:14am
|
If I'm not mistaken, someone posted here on the board that Sundazed used a
European mono LP tape for The Mamas & The Papas release from a year or two ago. Also, just recently, the entire Steppenwolf catalog was reissued in Japan with the mono singles as bonus tracks on each album. Unfortunately, though, one of our resident board experts said that after giving them a quick, cursory listen, it sounded like those mono single bonus tracks were vinyl dubs. It seems like they would have attempted to find tape sources for these re- releases if they might be archived somewhere. If anyone owns the Steppenwolf discs, I would be curious to know if they think the mono singles are 45 dubs or not. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 27 June 2013 at 9:23pm
|
I had a chance to hear these bonus tracks, thanks to one of our fellow board members, and I can say with 100% certainty that they are all vinyl 45 dubs--and not very good ones. There's lots of groove distortion, and the overall sound is muddy on all of them. I'm not at all surprised, even though I was hoping for a miracle. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 7:32pm
|
I ran across a 1973-era Goldies 45 reissue of "Joy To The World" in my collection that I don't ever recall listening to. It's mono and runs 3:20, just like the Dunhill 45.
But boy howdy, has this one ever been put under the knife: the entire instrumental break is missing! The chorus gets re-looped to cover for it, which gets very old in a hurry. If a tape of the hit mono 45 was found somewhere for the Celebrate CD compilation, it was certainly missing when this surgically-reconstructed creation was released. So what was the deal with the disappearance of the original ABC/Dunhill mono 45 masters? Here's my theory: It might have all been a result of the company deciding to go with CBS exclusively for its manufacturing. That process didn't happen overnight: the first Columbia-pressed 45 I recall buying was Cherokee's "Girl I Got News For You" on ABC in August of '71. I have two vinyl Monarch-pressed "Re-1" mono/stereo DJ 45s of that title; one with a big star on the stereo side, the other copy with none at all. My stock is a mono vinyl "Re-2" Columbia Santa Maria pressing. About a month and a half later, I recall seeing CSM-pressed mono/stereo DJs and mono stocks of The Road Home's "Keep It In The Family" on Dunhill and - at least for promo 45s - the Columbia pressings became the norm from that point on. But before they could do an exclusive deal with CBS, ABC still had to fulfill their long-term deals with their independent plants, including Monarch, Plastic Products, Specialty, Clarion and Sun Plastics for 45s (as well as Dynamic LP Stereo Record Pressing, which pressed LPs only.) Monarch and Specialty appear to have bowed out of the picture first, with the original Dunhill Goldies 45s and ABC Treasure Chest reissue 45s going with them. Meanwhile, very poorly-pressed original Dunhill pairings were still being produced on the post-1968 Dunhill logo label by either Clarion or Sun (or possibly both) until the deals with those companies and Plastic Products finally expired at the end of 1972. At the beginning of 1973, CBS' pressing deal finally became exclusive. As per the usual policy at Columbia, the ABC and Dunhill titles in the former Dunhill Goldies 45 and Treasure Chest lines would need to be re-cut in-house by CBS, and so, with the previous indie plants no longer manufacturing ABC/Dunhill product, the original ABC and Dunhill 45 stampers were retired. From the moment CBS began to press older titles for the newly-consolidated (1973) Goldies 45 catalog, it was apparent that the original mono 45 mix tapes were no longer in the ABC vaults. It could be that someone connected to Three Dog Night made backup copies of the singles masters before they were sent to the label. Or maybe not, if it should turn out that the "single mixes" on Celebrate prove to have been disc dubs. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 7:35pm
| (duplicate post) |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:43pm
|
It was a company decision to throw out all of the mono masters (where stereo mixes existed) to save space in the tape vault....that's not the first time that's happened...a number of RCA and Columbia multitracks are gone because of the same thing. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 1:46pm
Tom, I think what John meant to say was "So what was the deal with the disappearance of the original ABC/Dunhill mono 45 stampers?" I don't think any of us have ever disputed the fact that the company threw away the masters. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 2:28pm
Thanks, Aaron; I hadn't made that point clear enough. My intent was to pinpoint why the last product derived from those master tapes stopped flowing from the manufacturing pipeline when it did. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 3:52pm
|
That I couldn't tell you. When ABC issued the single track vocal version of Sealed With A Kiss by Brian Hyland on their Treasure Chest series 45, why wasn't the original stamper being used at that time?
Though when it comes to Three Dog Night, it seems many of my Goldies 45 reissues are stereo album versions.... Unrelated to this thread entirely, I recently purchased the entire collection of the biggest Ronnie Dove collector I knew (besides myself) and between his collection and mine we had 3 copies of a Canadian MCA 45 of one of Ronnie's singles, which used the original american stamper. How it ended up on MCA (In Canada only), and how they were able to get the original stamper, I'll never know. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: Yah Shure
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 5:23pm
Probably for the same reason that the artist on my Treasure Chest copy (which does have the double-tracked vocal) is listed as Barry Mann! In your case, Tom, somebody obviously pulled the wrong tape when a new lacquer needed to be cut for a major hit record that already gone through its share of stampers over the years. In my case, the typesetter at Alco Research & Engineering Company still had Barry Mann on the brain from the record's "Who Put The Bomp" flip side. That's an interesting tale about the Ronnie Dove Canamerican anomaly. If ever there were a "mystery meat" among record labels, Diamond would certainly be near - if not actually at - the top of the menu. |
Posted By: Paul C
Date Posted: 04 July 2013 at 3:32pm
Tom, as you likely know, Ronnie Dove's singles up to "Cry" were issued in Canada on the Apex label, which was a label of the Compo Company, which was essentially Decca's Canadian subsidiary and eventually evolved into MCA Canada. |
Posted By: TomDiehl1
Date Posted: 04 July 2013 at 4:19pm
Thanks, Paul. I didn't know that about the Compo Company. Perhaps tape dubs of some of Ronnie's masters may exist in a Universal vault somewhere in the world after all. I do have a Canadian pressing of Ronnie's first Decca 45, Party Doll (with the Belltones) from 1962, which Ronnie was surprised to learn existed (I've never seen a 2nd, and mine is in rough shape -- the person whose collection I bought had never come across one either). One More Mountain To Climb was also on Apex (#77032). All of Ronnie's Diamond singles starting with My Babe (Diamond 221) were issued on a Canadian Diamond label which mentions "Manufactured And Distributed In Canada By The Compo Company LTD". I know many Diamond label 45s never made it to Canadian pressings on Apex, but I wonder how many did when Diamond finally set up a Canadian label. I much prefer the Canadian pressings, nice vinyl on them and they use the American stampers. I've never found a Canadian Diamond pressing of "What's Wrong With My World" (Diamond 256), though (and I somehow doubt one exists for "Chains Of Love" (Diamond 271) but I could be wrong. I've also never come across promotional copies of any Canadian Diamond or Apex discs. ------------- Live in stereo. |
Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 21 March 2014 at 3:51pm
|
After some careful analysis, I can say that the mono 45 version of "Joy To The World" that's been floating around on CD is a vinyl dub. This explains why it fades earlier than the actual 45 and has some strange clicks throughout, in addition to some distortion in places.
In order to hide vinyl noise, the keyboard intro has been carefully spliced on from the stereo version and folded down to mono. The way I can tell is because on the stereo mix, the percussion mics are left up. Even though the drums haven't started, I can hear the rattle of the snares and possibly a faint hi-hat tap before the first drums on the stereo mix. None of this can be heard on the true mono mix. But, it can be heard on the 45 version on CD, which can only mean it was borrowed from the stereo. ------------- Aaron Kannowski http://www.uptownsound.com" rel="nofollow - Uptown Sound http://www.919thepeak.com" rel="nofollow - 91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 19 December 2018 at 6:51am
|
It seems that the LP versions on Joy To The World Their Greatest Hits (copyright 1974) and Best Of (copyright 1982) are different mixes.
The version on Joy has a much wider stereo separation and a larger dynamic range than on Best Of, but has much less "punch" than Best Of. Can someone take a listen to these two versions and help diagnose where they came from? I don't have any Three Dog Night on vinyl, and I don't know what the original LP version sounded like on the Naturally album. It seems that all the LP versions I have on CD can trace their masterings back to one of these two CDs. ------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: MMathews
Date Posted: 19 December 2018 at 4:20pm
|
Ron I can help with this. They aren't different mixes but very different mastering.
The CD for "Joy To The World - Their Greatest Hits" was made from the LP master which apparently was in good shape by the time the CD was mastered. It has a very "warm" sound with some hi's rolled off. But the "Best Of" LP was mastered with more mid-range and hi's and always sounded to me like all the tapes were a generation away from originals. But we needed that set because "Greatest Hits" was missing some hits. So my preferred source has always been "Greatest Hits" for the hits it has... I just added back my own hi's. The songs on there sound very clean and transparent and as you say, very good dynamic range. MM |
Posted By: Bill Cahill
Date Posted: 19 December 2018 at 4:50pm
|
I agree with Mark. Same recording, different mastering. The original vinyl versions of these compilation albums weren't that great
sounding to begin with. I had hoped that someone at MCA would have gone back to first generation masters and do these CD releases right, but it sounds like when they grabbed whatever album tape they had on the shelf, added some noise reduction, and they were done with it. |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 19 December 2018 at 8:49pm
|
Thanks, Mark & Bill!
That is quite an unbelievable degradation in sound quality from the Joy collection in 1974 to Best Of in 1982. I wonder what actual first-generation tapes would sound like! For what it's worth, the following CDs are based on the mastering of Joy:
------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 19 December 2018 at 10:03pm
The (almost) 45 version first turned up on CD on Rhino's Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1971 (1989), where it fades a few seconds early compared to the actual 45. You can hear a few vinyl crackles during the beginning of the song, where there isn't any instrumentation behind the opening vocal lines. On the plus side, there doesn't seem to be any noise reduction on this CD. The same analog transfer is used on:
------------- There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one http://www.crapfromthepast.com" rel="nofollow - Crap From The Past . |
Posted By: PopArchivist
Date Posted: 20 December 2018 at 11:21pm
|
I find it amazing that such a massive #1 hit is incorrectly timed to fade so early in all CD versions or goes on beyond the 45 in others.
You didnt mention it here, but the 45 version is in mono, not stereo as a lot of people assume it is. The running times for this song can go up to 3:40 on some versions and are short by several seconds on other versions. Once again thanks for doing a thorough analysis of the song on CD. |