Elton John - Sad Songs....
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Topic: Elton John - Sad Songs....
Posted By: jimct
Subject: Elton John - Sad Songs....
Date Posted: 07 May 2006 at 6:24pm
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About a month after we got the first promo 45, a "Special Radio Mix" version of "Sad Songs (Say So Much)" arrived. Its listed and actual time is (4:05), and features substantially more percussion. We did switch over and play this new mix on-air as well.
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Replies:
Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 07 May 2006 at 7:16pm
A-HA!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for this information. Because this is one song that has NEVER sounded right on CD to me.
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Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 07 May 2006 at 7:35pm
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Does anyone know if the "special radio mix" ever appeared on a commercial 45?
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 07 May 2006 at 9:49pm
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Not sure, but I HAVE seen this "special radio mix" 45. My friend has a copy. I listened to it (without having the other version to compare) and it didn't sound too much different. I guess if I could've A/B'd them, I'd notice the percussion difference.
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Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 08 May 2006 at 2:42am
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I can't say either. At the time, I think I just bought the album that featured it. All I can say for sure is that to me, the version I hear on CDs today just sound flat to me. Could just be me, though.
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Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 08 May 2006 at 3:03am
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The "Special Radio Mix" never did appear on a commercial 45. It's funny, but both Aaron's and JMD's comments do apply. It sounds to me like they took the stock 45 version and tried to make a "dance mix" out of it, by adding a background disco-rhythm/dance beat on top, supporting Aaron's "it's not that different" point. But, if you heard the new version constantly for 3 months back in '84, then popped on the CD version today, "flat" is a good way to describe it, JMD - like a Ritz cracker with no salt - it's OK, but something's missing...
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Posted By: EdisonLite
Date Posted: 08 May 2006 at 7:07am
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I saw the video on MTV as much as I heard the song on the radio, and don't recall any differences. Does anyone know which mix was used for the video? (My guess is that the video was released to MTV before the special remix was done.) It could also be that the stations in my area played only the 1st mix.
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Posted By: sriv94
Date Posted: 08 May 2006 at 8:31am
Just wondering--is either version of the 45 pitched-up in any way? One radio station here played the edited version, but it was sped up compared to the "45 version" on the Greatest Hits 1976-86 CD. What I don't know is whether they pitched it up themselves or if it came that way (generally this radio station did not pitch up their records when carting them up).
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Doug
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All of the good signatures have been taken.
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Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 08 May 2006 at 12:55pm
Since the stock 45 is both listed and actually is (4:08), and Pat's book has some "45 versions" running in the (4:06/4:07) range, it probably wasn't pitched up on the record. For years at our station, the PD and Chief Engineer custom-altered the speed of all of our direct-drive turntables - faster by (+1.7).
Can't remember for sure now if that number referred to all 45s now spinning at 46.7 RPM , or if it meant 1.7% faster than normal speed, but I believe it meant the latter. I was our "carter" for over 10 years, and I used those modified tables to cart all our music. This tactic was actually quite common in Top 40 for many years, especially in a "2 Top 40 station market." My bosses would always tell me "I want the other station's music to sound SLOW compared to ours!" In 1973, before any of us got there, consultant Paul Drew was hired, and all the 45s began sounding positively chipmunky, at like 49-50RPM. Drove me nuts!
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 3:30pm
I am in the process of reviewing both the commercial and "special radio mix" 45s for "Sad Songs," thanks to Jim, and I can say for certain the "radio mix" is pitched up when compared to the commercial 45 version.
Honestly, I cannot hear any other differences when doing a quick comparison of the first minute or so. I'll do a more thorough comparison through headphones this evening.
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Posted By: crapfromthepast
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 9:38pm
For what it's worth, my version on The A-List is 107.0 BPM, my version on the Geffen Greatest Hits is 107.3 BPM, and my 45 version on Hits On CD Vol. 2 (Mercury [W. Germany] 822 843-2, 1984) is much faster at 109.1 BPM.
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 4:51pm
I just did a very careful analysis through headphones between the DJ and commercial 45 versions. The DJ "special radio mix" is pitched up 1.95%, when compared to the commercial 45 version.
(Also, on the DJ 45, they used a very, very slight amount of compression to make the song sound louder; however, it is so slight, I probably would not have noticed it if not for the headphones and being able to see the two waveforms on the screen.)
Other than that, there are no mix differences whatsoever between the two. For the record, the DJ 45 is exactly 110 BPM.
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 5:12pm
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In defense of those who say the mix sounds different, both the commercial and DJ 45s are EQ'd slightly brighter than the CD version I have. The slightly brighter high end, coupled with a 2% pitch difference can certainly make the CD version sound "flat" or "dull."
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Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 7:52pm
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Thanks, Aaron. I completely trust your ears. I can now stop searching for this on CD.
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Posted By: jimct
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 2:20am
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Aaron was kind enough to mp3 a few snippets of the various versions of this song. What sounds to me like "night and day" differences between the stock and "Special Radio Mix" ARE, in fact, 99% attributed to simply being sped up, as Aaron mentions above. I started this post as a "newbie" last May, before I realized that my ears can't tell the difference between a chirping bird and a tractor! I think I'll just stick with actual 45 timings and un-earthing unique DJ 45 edits, guys! :)
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 5:13am
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You don't give yourself enough credit, Jim. Your information has been invaluable to many of us here on the message board, sir. Besides, everyone is entitled to one mistake. You just used yours. :)
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Posted By: JMD1961
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 3:16pm
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I'd just like to thank everyone for this one. It really answered a lot of questions I had about this particular song.
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Posted By: Brian W.
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 9:23pm
Okay, so one thing I still don't understand:
Is the 45 and Special Radio Mix the same MIX as the album version?
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 11:11pm
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That's a very good question, Brian. Listening to the lo-fi audio samples on allmusic.com would make me guess "yes." Also, the 45 label says "Edit" underneath the time. All I can do is guess on this one, since I only have the 45 version on CD.
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Posted By: aaronk
Date Posted: 17 January 2007 at 12:47pm
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Thanks to Jim, I can confirm that the 45 and LP versions are the same mix. The 45 edits the intro in half and does an early fade for sure. I didn't check to see if there are any other edits in the middle.
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