Top 40 Music on CD Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Top 40 Music On Compact Disc > Chat Board
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Cheap Trick - The Flame
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Cheap Trick - The Flame

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
crapfromthepast View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan
Avatar

Joined: 14 September 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crapfromthepast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cheap Trick - The Flame
    Posted: 11 August 2020 at 9:23pm
It was unavoidable in the summer of 1988. At the time, I thought that even slightly anemic Cheap Trick was better than no Cheap Trick, and I was happy that the band had a hit. In recent years, I've warmed up to it. I had a friend in a cover band that used to play this song at pretty much every show, because people go absolutely bonkers for it. Well, cool.

LP version

The LP version runs 5:37, and runs at about 97.0 or 97.1 BPM throughout with no drift in tempo. Drummer Bun E. Carlos is playing live to a click track.

The LP version first appeared (commercially) on Lap Of Luxury (1988), where it sounds just fine in typical late '80s style. Huge dynamic range, no noise reduction (no loss of high end on the fade), and a slightly harsh EQ that was typical of the mixing style back then. The same analog transfer is used on:
  • The promo CD single, which has an indexing error that effectively lops off the first 0.2 seconds of the song; avoid
  • CBS Special Products' Parliament Platinum Collection (1989) - digital clone; digitally exactly the same level but with added dithering noise; this disc was free with a carton of cigarettes (!)
  • Epic's Greatest Hits (1991) - differently EQ'd digital clone, with a small amount of added compression/limiting, and shortened tail on the fade
  • Sony's Feel The Love (1994) - differently EQ'd digital clone
  • Cema's Greatest Hits Of The 80's Vol. 5 Power Ballads (1994)
  • Sony's 2-CD Read The Hits (1994) - differently EQ'd digital clone
  • EMI's 2-CD Mystic Music Presents Red Hot (1998) - sounds extremely close to Greatest Hits, with its added compression/limiting, but shortens the fade even further
  • Sony's 2-CD Essential (2004) - slightly less compression/limiting than Greatest Hits
45 version

It sounds simple enough, but it's not. I tried to reverse-engineer the "Short Version" from the promo CD single, thinking it was just one or two edits and an early fade, but there's a portion of audio in the 45 that doesn't seem to exist in the LP version.

Here are partial editing instructions, using the timings from Lap Of Luxury:

Segment 1
Begins between beats, making it difficult to count beats.
Extends from 0:00 to 4:11.7 of both LP and 45 versions.
Ends on the second snare after the word "you".

Remove 78 beats from 4:11.7 to 4:59.9 of the LP version.

Segment 2
Begins on a snare hit
10 beats long
Ends on a snare hit
Extends from 4:11.7 to 4:17.9 of the 45 version
I can't find this piece of audio in the LP version. Listen at the fourth beat in this segment, at 4:14.2 in the 45 version, how the tamborine hits way before the snare (this is the snare hit before the downbeat; the next snare after this one falls immediately before the line "whatever you want"). I can't find that tamborine hit anywhere in the LP version. (Seeking a second opinion; I will gladly revise these instructions if someone finds it.) Fooey.

Segment 3
Begins on a snare hit, immediately before the line "I'll give to you"
30 beats long
Ends on a snare, on the word "you" in the line "and whatever you want"
Extends from 4:17.9 to 4:36.4 of the 45 version
Extends from 4:59.9 to 5:18.5 of the LP version

Fade
19 beats long
Starts on a downbeat at end of drum fill
Ends on a snare, on the word "you" in the line "and whatever you want"
Extends from 4:24.7 to 4:36.4 of the 45 version
Extends from 5:06.7 to 5:18.5 of the LP version

Your mixdown (if somehow you manage to find segment 2 in the LP version) will run 4:36.4, with edits at 4:11.7 and 4:17.9, and a 19-beat fade from 4:24.7 to 4:36.4. While this will match the "Short Version" on the promo CD single, it's about five seconds shorter than the actual 45. Plus, the promo CD single has that indexing error that cuts off the first 0.2 second of the song. I can't imagine radio stations played the promo CD single on the air in 1988, due to that indexing error. Both the LP ("Long Version") and shorter-than-45 ("Short Version") run at 97.0 or 97.1 BPM throughout, which is the proper speed for the song.

The actual 45 (edit and length) exists on plenty of CDs, none of which reproduce the indexing error of the promo CD single.

The vinyl 45 also runs at 97.0 or 97.1 BPM throughout (confirmed from a 45 playing on a nice turntable in a YouTube video). There are speed errors galore for the 45 version on CD.

The oldest CD I have with the 45 version is Priority's Eighties Greatest Rock Hits Vol. 5 From The Heart (1992). It runs at the right speed and extends out to the full length, but it's mastered too loud and clips a lot. The same analog transfer is used on:
  • Sony's cheapie Keep On Loving You (1993), which sounds kinda lifeless, but also runs at the right speed and extends out to the full length, and lacks the clipping found on the Priority disc
  • Sony's multi-disc Eighties Pop Hits (2001) - digitally exactly 0.5 dB louder than Keep On Loving You, but fades sooner
There's a version on swaitek's promo 50-CD set The A List Disc 41, which matches the Short Version in speed and fade points, restores the missing 0.2 seconds of the intro (yay), and has added noise reduction (boo!) I'm certain that this mastering is from a TM Century disc.

There's a new analog transfer on Rhino's Billboard Top Hits 1988 (1994), which sounds spectacular and runs out to the full length of the 45, but runs about 1.0% too slow (at about 96.1 BPM). The same analog transfer is used on:
  • Time-Life's Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 10 1988 (1995) - digitally exactly 0.9 dB quieter
  • Time-Life's 2-CD Body Talk Vol. 16 Sweet Nothings (1997) - digitally exactly 1.5 dB quieter
There's still another analog transfer on JCI's Eighteen Rock Classics (1994), which runs too slow (96.4 BPM) and fades about a minute early, during the guitar solo! Avoid. There's even one more disc that uses the same analog transfer and also fades a minute early:
  • Razor & Tie's 2-CD Everything '80s (1995)
Finally, one more new analog transfer on Sony's Forever Pop Vol. 2 (1995), which sounds a little muffled, runs at about the right speed, but fades a second or two early.

What a mess.

My recommendations

For the LP version, if you must own the song on a single-artist disc, Lap Of Luxury (1988) sounds great, but it's really not a very good album. A much better choice for the LP version is Sony's 2-CD Read The Hits (1994), which sounds about the same as Lap Of Luxury, and is probably my favorite CBS-label compilation ever. Yeah, it's that good. Seriously.

For the 45 version, go with Rhino's Billboard Top Hits 1988 (1994) and speed the track up by 1.0%.
There's a lot of crap on the radio, but there's only one Crap From The Past.
Back to Top
Bellenger1981 View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan


Joined: 18 July 2019
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bellenger1981 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 August 2020 at 5:42pm
Good catch, Ron! I always thought that the 45 version
was just an edit of the album version. You are correct
about that tambourine hitting before the snare at that
time.

Edited by Bellenger1981
Jason Bellenger
Byron Center, Michigan, USA
Back to Top
PopArchivist View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan
Avatar

Joined: 30 June 2018
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PopArchivist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 August 2020 at 7:19pm
I agree Jason, I always thought it was an early fade of the album version. Ron has too much time on his hands, but the observations are much appreciated.
Favorite two expressions to live by on this board: "You can't download vinyl" and "Not everything is available on CD."
Back to Top
garye View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan


Joined: 02 August 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 August 2020 at 1:53pm
My version of "The Flame" comes from "Cheap Trick, The
Epic Archive Volume 3" ties out at 4:40 but fades
earlier at the 4:35 mark.
is this the actual single dub?
Back to Top
davidclark View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan


Joined: 17 November 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidclark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 August 2020 at 9:03pm
I am trying to listen for that tambourine hit at 4:14.2 in the 45, but I can not
hear it. Indeed my 59-year-old ears have lost much of their ability to hear high
frequencies (sigh...). Perhaps this is why I can not hear it. Can you younger
listeners hear it?
dc1
Back to Top
Bellenger1981 View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan


Joined: 18 July 2019
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bellenger1981 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 August 2020 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by garye garye wrote:

My version of "The Flame" comes from
"Cheap Trick, The
Epic Archive Volume 3" ties out at 4:40 but fades
earlier at the 4:35 mark.
is this the actual single dub?

My copy of "The Flame [Single Version]" from the 2019
Real Gone CD issue of "The Epic Archive, Vol. 3" runs
about 4:40, not 4:35. And, yes, it has that tambourine
hit before the snare that Ron pointed out, so I believe
that it is the actual single dub.
Jason Bellenger
Byron Center, Michigan, USA
Back to Top
garye View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan


Joined: 02 August 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2020 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Bellenger1981 Bellenger1981 wrote:

Originally posted by garye garye wrote:

My version of
"The Flame" comes from
"Cheap Trick, The
Epic Archive Volume 3" ties out at 4:40 but fades
earlier at the 4:35 mark.
is this the actual single dub?

My copy of "The Flame [Single Version]" from the 2019
Real Gone CD issue of "The Epic Archive, Vol. 3" runs
about 4:40, not 4:35. And, yes, it has that tambourine
hit before the snare that Ron pointed out, so I
believe
that it is the actual single dub.

Thanks for the clarification!
Sometimes these days you never know what is what when
it comes to these releases!
Back to Top
eriejwg View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan
Avatar

Joined: 10 June 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eriejwg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2020 at 11:08am
I took Ron's advice and sped up Billboard Top Hits
1988
by 1% and then faded the track from 4:39-4:41.
Back to Top
BSharp View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan


Joined: 23 July 2020
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BSharp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2020 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by garye garye wrote:

And, yes, it has that tambourine
hit before the snare that Ron pointed out, so I
believe
that it is the actual single dub.


It is (I have that version from the same CD, as well
as the original 45).

The album version annoys me... in the last chorus
before the fade, they flip the first two lines around
so he's singing "Whatever You Want, I'll Give It To
You" BEFORE "Wherever You Go, I'll Be With You". I
love the song in general (even if Cheap Trick
doesn't), but for me it's gotta be the single version
or nothing.
Back to Top
PopArchivist View Drop Down
Music Fan
Music Fan
Avatar

Joined: 30 June 2018
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PopArchivist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2021 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by garye garye wrote:

My version of "The Flame" comes from "Cheap Trick, The
Epic Archive Volume 3" ties out at 4:40 but fades
earlier at the 4:35 mark.
is this the actual single dub?


The "short version" on Epic CD Single Promo ESK-1050 ends at 4:36.759 but you said it is missing some seconds Ron. I can't attest to what the 45 has, but based on what Ron says 1988 Billboard runs a few seconds longer and has to be pitched correctly.

I would think the CD promo short version in this instance would be the correct version. If you add the seconds back in, it still ends at 4:37, not 4:40-4:41 I'm confused as to why there is a 5 second difference. Sorry if I am not understanding.

Edited by PopArchivist
Favorite two expressions to live by on this board: "You can't download vinyl" and "Not everything is available on CD."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.07
Copyright ©2001-2024 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.151 seconds.